Doug Foxvog wrote: (01)
> On Sun, February 24, 2013 10:08, Phil Murray wrote:
> > ...
> > John S. begins with an excerpt from Chen's paper, including: "English
> > requires speakers to encode a distinction between present and future
> > events ...[snip]"
>
> > No, it doesn't, strictly speaking. You can say, "It rains tomorrow."
> > and be understood perfectly by almost every English speaker, even if
> > the sentence occurs in isolation. But you will probably be thought of
> > as someone who has limited familiarity with "standard" English.
>
> This is understandable, but understood to be "wrong". (02)
John meant "English grammar requires..." Phil meant "violating the grammatical
requirement does not necessarily interfere with communication". Moreover, an
expression like "if it rains tomorrow" seems to be acceptable in modern speech,
even though "if it should rain tomorrow" is grammatically proper. So this
thesis is a bit overstated, I think. (03)
> Parents have to be
> able to understand their children as they learn the language and become
> more proficient. However, unless they have standards and "correct" the
> child as it is learning the language, the language will horribly diverge. (04)
In my experience, children learn the language as it is reinforced by the people
they talk to -- parents, other children, television, etc. It is far more
effective to reinforce the correct speech than to attempt to "correct" the
errors, especially when the child is early on in learning the language. One of
my mentors even said that making grammatical errors when expressing yourself in
a language you learned in school is a sign that you have progressed from "book
learning" the language to using the language instinctively, and in the next
learning phase it will all come together. (I have found that to be correct.) (05)
At age 7 or so, the value of "correction" from a recognized authority (a
teacher, a coach, and maybe a parent) becomes much greater, because the child
has some degree of comfort with the language, and is ready to learn fine points. (06)
> Who has not had no idea what a child is saying, but has found that the parent
>understands? (07)
Yes, I have had that experience, and I don't doubt others have had that
experience with my kids. (My 2-year-old used "I" and "you" backwards, because
people always called him "you".) But for the most part, we are talking about
pre-schoolers. If you don't understand what an 8-year-old is saying, you
probably don't speak the active dialect on his street, and you might not
understand his mother, either. And if you do understand and correct him, it
isn't likely to change his speech patterns, if they are the patterns used in
his neighborhood, unless he is speaking to you. At best, he will learn two
English dialects. I had a secretary many years ago who spoke well-modulated
educated English in the office, and Washington street dialect with her friends,
with an entirely different set of vocal mannerisms. The language had already
"horribly diverged"; she just mastered both dialects. (08)
<snip>
>
> Note that language can also add meaning. In 1989, protesters calling
> for reform in China found support from the General Secretary, Zhao Ziyang,
> who was somewhat supported by paramount leader Deng Xiaoping over
> more hard-line leaders. In order to encourage Deng in his acceptance of
> reforms and tolerance of the protests, small bottles were set out in public
> places all over China. After the TienAnMen Square crackdown, these bottles
> were broken and additional small > bottles were broken all around the
>country.
> What was the meaning of
> the small bottles? It comes from language. "Xiao" means "small" in
> Mandarin; and "ping" means "bottle".
> (09)
I like this tale. It is a concise version of Hassan Ait-Kaci's trick poem. (010)
-Ed (011)
>
> -- doug foxvog
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