On Tue, January 22, 2013 13:16, Simon Spero wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 12:19 PM, Matthew West
> <dr.matthew.west@xxxxxxxxx>wrote: (01)
>> An good example of this are Fictional people (in worlds in which they
>> are fictional, *not in their fictional worlds*).
>> These entities have a temporal extent,
>> but assigning them to a spacial location is problematic. (02)
Agreed. Is there a need for assigning a location to a shared mental concept?
There are various representations of different portions of such concept (in
brains, books, films, digital memory objects, and actions (performances,
showings, broadcasts) which themselves have locations. I'd prefer to call
them aspatial, but if you must assign a location, i'd suggest Earth plus
whatever range broadcasts may have reached outside of Earth. Sherlock
Holmes, the character, certainly existed on the Moon when Buzz Aldrin was
there. (03)
>> MW: I don’t see a problem. There simply is a possible world in which
>> they do exist and have a location, (04)
That is not the question. The question is a location for conceptual
artifacts in the "real" world. (05)
>> You can’t place them in the “real” world simply because
>> they do not exist there, and the one they do exist in can be
>> arbitrarily similar to the real world that we are in and they are not. (06)
> This was the case I was trying to distinguish: (07)
> (1) In our world, at some time prior to 1887, at 1 Bush Villas, Elm Grove,
> SouthSea, Portsmouth, England, Arthur Conan Doyle conceived of the
> fictional character "Sherlock Holmes". (08)
inMt: PeopleDataMt.
(isa ArthurConanDoyle MaleHuman)
(firstName ArthurConanDoyle "Arthur")
(middleName ArthurConanDoyle "Conan")
(lastName ArthurConanDoyle "Doyle")
(familyName ArthurConanDoyle "Doyle")
(isa ConceivingOfSherlockHolmes CWCreation)
(performedBy ConceivingOfSherlockHolmes ArthurConanDoyle)
(dateOfEvent ConceivingOfSherlockHolmes (YearFn 1886))
(outputsCreated ConceivingOfSherlockHolmes SherlockHolmesWorld)
(holdsAfter (YearFn 1886)
(isa SherlockHolmesWorld FictionalContext))
(outputsCreated ConceivingOfSherlockHolmes SherlockHolmes)
(holdsAfter ConceivingOfSherlockHolmes
(isa SherlockHolmesWorld FictionalCharacter))
(isa OneBushVillas HumanResidence)
(holdsIn ConceivingOfSherlockHolmes
(streetAddressText OneBushVillas
"1 Bush Villas, Elm Grove, SouthSea, Portsmouth, England"))
(eventOccursAt ConceivingOfSherlockHolmes OneBushVillas) (09)
inMt: SherlockHolmesWorld
(isa SherlockHolmes AdultMaleHuman)
(firstName SherlockHolmes "Sherlock")
(lastName SherlockHolmes "Holmes") (010)
> (2) Before 1887 the character "Sherlock Holmes" did not exist as
> something to which the conception of could be attributed. (011)
inMt: PeopleDataMt.
(startsDuring (YearFn 1887) SherlockHolmes) (012)
> (3) In our world, the fictional character of Holmes was partially inspired
> by the actual person Joseph Bell, who was a Doctor. (013)
inMt: PeopleDataMt.
(holdsSometimeDuring
(TimeIntervalBetweenFn (YearFn 1800) (YearFn 1886))
(and
(isa JosephBell HumanAdultMale)
(firstName JosephBell "Joseph")
(lastName JosephBell "Bell")
(occupation JosephBell Doctor)))
(<wasPartiallyInspiredByFor>
ArthurCannonDoyle JosephBell SherlockHolmes)) (014)
> (4) In our world, the BBC commissioned a number of films featuring modern
> reinterpretations of the Conan Doyle stories, featuring a Holmes who in
> the worlds of those movies differed in some respects from the original
> source. [Written by Stephen Moffat, who isn't a Doctor, but writes one on
> TV] (015)
inMt: MassMediaDataMt.
(thereExists ?FILM
(and
(isa ?FILM Movie-CW)
(thereExists ?COMMISSIONING
(and
(isa ?COMMISSIONING CommissioningSomething)
(<objectCommissioned> ?COMMISSIONING ?FILM)
(ist (ContextOfPCWFn ?FILM)
(isa SherlockHolmes AdultMaleHuman)))))) (016)
> (5) In the fictional world in which our Conan Doyle conceived, Holmes was
> a detective, who resided at 221B Baker St. (017)
inMt: SherlockHolmesWorld.
(isa SherlockHolmes AdultMaleHuman)
(occupation SherlockHolmes Detective) (018)
(isa TwoTwoOneBBakerSt HumanResidence)
(streetAddressText TwoTwoOneBBakerSt "212B Baker St.")
(<residesAt> SherlockHolmes TwoTwoOneBBakerSt) (019)
> (6) In a possible real world, that Conan Doyle may have conceived of a
> fictional world in which Holmes was a baker, who lived at 221B Detective
> St. (020)
inMt: UniversalVocabularyMt.
(ist PossibleRealWorld1324 DataMicrotheory)
(genlMt PossibleRealWorld1324 PeopleDataMt) (021)
inMt: CurrentWorldDataCollectorMt-NonDualist.
(ist PossibleRealWorld1324 FictionalContext) (022)
inMt: PossibleRealWorld1324.
(isa ConceivingOfSherlockHolmes CWCreation)
(performedBy ConceivingOfSherlockHolmes ArthurConanDoyle)
(dateOfEvent ConceivingOfSherlockHolmes (YearFn 1886))
(outputsCreated ConceivingOfSherlockHolmes SherlockHolmesWorld2)
(holdsAfter ConceivingOfSherlockHolmes
(isa SherlockHolmesWorld2 FictionalContext))
(outputsCreated ConceivingOfSherlockHolmes SherlockHolmes)
(holdsAfter ConceivingOfSherlockHolmes
(isa SherlockHolmes FictionalCharacter)) (023)
inMt: SherlockHolmesWorld2.
(isa SherlockHolmes AdultMaleHuman)
(occupation SherlockHolmes Baker) (024)
(isa TwoTwoOneBBakerSt HumanResidence)
(streetAddressText TwoTwoOneBBakerSt "212B Detective St.")
(<residesAt> SherlockHolmes TwoTwoOneBBakerSt) (025)
> (7) In yet another possible world, Bell may have been partially inspired
> by
> Conan Doyle to conceive of a Holmes and write fictional stories featuring
> that character word-for-word identical with the ones in our Conan Doyle
> wrote. (026)
> Is the fictional character in (1) the same fictional character as in (4)?
> Is the fictional character in (5) the same fictional character as in (6)?
> Is the fictional character in (1) the same fictional character as in (7)? (027)
> In our world could two people in the year 1700 discuss the character
> Sherlock Holmes? (028)
I'm having problems with the tense, here. (029)
In our world, no one can do anything in the year 1700 -- what happened,
happened (Shroedinger's cat notwithstanding). (030)
Are you asking if it is possible that two people in the year 1700 could
have discussed the character Sherlock Holmes -- even though no one did? (031)
I figure that the possibility would have been greater than one in a
googleplex, (10^-(10^100) ) in that year. Two people could have
hypothesized an
author who created a fictional detective with the name "Sherlock Holmes".
The odds drop as things that they discuss about Holmes happen to match
up with features of the conceptual work. (032)
> In our world, could two people in 2013 discuss real properties of the
> character Sherlock Holmes (e.g. the street address where the character was
> conceived). (033)
Yes. One can ask:
inMt: CurrentWorldDataCollectorMt-NonDualist
(thereExists ?RESIDENCE
(and
(eventOccursAt ConceivingOfSherlockHolmes ?RESIDENCE)
(holdsIn ConceivingOfSherlockHolmes
(streetAddressText ?RESIDENCE ?ADDRESS))) (034)
-- doug f (035)
> Simon (036)
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