On Wed, January 30, 2013 09:14, Matthew West wrote:
>> > doug foxvog wrote:
>> > <snip>
>> >> > MW: Quite, so we are almost certainly interested in the set, which
>> >> > would have the properties common to each Sherlock Holmes, rather
>> >> > than the aggregate. (01)
>> >>df: However, sets are timeless, but the "shared mental concept" is
>> >>not. It started at a certain time. It has a creator, and other
>> >>properties that would not apply to a set. (02)
>> > MW: Sets may be timeless, but all their members can be restricted in
>> > the time they are created.... So I think the set of similar
>> > but separate concepts in different brains is the closest to reality
>> > you are going to get. (03)
>> You are saying that your method is unable to describe something like the
>> fictional character, Sherlock Holmes. For ontologists who find it
>> useful to model such things (let's call them "conceptual works"),
>> another method is needed. (04)
> MW: Not at all. Sherlock Holmes is a person in one or more possible
> worlds, so I have no trouble modelling him.
> The problem I see is that you are trying
> to conflate Sherlock Holmes with writings about him. (05)
?? I am distinguishing them plus describing the interrelationships. (06)
In "our world" Sherlock Holmes is a fictional character. A fictional
character is a conceptual work that has a relationship to fictional
contexts (described in fictional works) and a "real" being in those
specific contexts. The fictional character is described in one or more
conceptual works that describe the fictional contexts. (07)
>> >> >>df: Such objects, whether artifacts, or representations in people's
>> >> >>brains certainly do exist. But i would distinguish the collection
>> >> >>of representations from the concept. (08)
>> >> > MW: In which case I have to ask what you think a concept is if it
>> >> > is something different from the set of all things that exemplify
>> >> > the concept?
<snip>
>> df: I don't know what the utility
>> is of modeling the character as a set would be. (09)
> MW: I would not model Sherlock Holmes as a set, but what is common
> to the different copies of a book is not Sherlock Holmes.
> Sherlock Holmes is one of the things they represent. (010)
How would you model Sherlock Holmes in our world? I am referring to the
thing created by Arthur Conan Doyle. ... the thing that was the
objectCreated in a creation event, and thus has a starting date. (011)
<snip>
>> df: I prefer the
>> term "conceptual work", with a meaning that Cyc names
> #$DevisedPracticeOrWork. (012)
> MW: That would be the book content, not the character. The character is
> represented by the conceptual work. (013)
The book is one conceptual work, the characters in the book are parts
of the book, but also are conceptual works, which can be included in
further conceptual works. (014)
ACD wrote a number of different stories (separate conceptual works),
each of which included Sherlock Holmes. The Sherlock Holmes in
those works was not (in the context of those works) a fictional
character, but in our world, is. (015)
Regards,
-- doug foxvog (016)
> Regards
>
> Matthew West
> Information Junction
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>
>> >> These various features (partial representation, incorrect
>> >> representation,
>> >> ...) do not seem to me to be possible features of sets.
>>
>> > MW: A set can have whatever members you want (as long as you can
>> > identify them) and they can have subsets with qualifications.
>>
>> Of course. I'm referring to the mass of relations that need to be
> defined. I
>> don't like calling temporal objects sets. Mathematical sets are
> atemporal.
>
>>
>> -- doug foxvog
>>
>> > Regards
>> >
>> > Matthew West
>> > Information Junction
>> > Tel: +44 1489 880185
>> > Mobile: +44 750 3385279
>> > Skype: dr.matthew.west
>> > matthew.west@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > http://www.informationjunction.co.uk/
>> > http://www.matthew-west.org.uk/
>> >
>> > This email originates from Information Junction Ltd. Registered in
>> > England and Wales No. 6632177.
>> > Registered office: 2 Brookside, Meadow Way, Letchworth Garden City,
>> > Hertfordshire, SG6 3JE.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >> -- doug foxvog
>> >>
>> >> >>...
>> >>
>> >> > Regards
>> >> >
>> >> > Matthew West
>> >> > Information Junction
>> >> > Tel: +44 1489 880185
>> >> > Mobile: +44 750 3385279
>> >> > Skype: dr.matthew.west
>> >> > matthew.west@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> > http://www.informationjunction.co.uk/
>> >> > http://www.matthew-west.org.uk/
>> >> >
>> >> > This email originates from Information Junction Ltd. Registered in
>> >> > England and Wales No. 6632177.
>> >> > Registered office: 2 Brookside, Meadow Way, Letchworth Garden City,
>> >> > Hertfordshire, SG6 3JE.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >> >> > (3) In our world, the fictional character of Holmes was
>> >> >> >> > partially inspired by the actual person Joseph Bell, who was
>> >> >> >> > a
>> > Doctor.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >> inMt: PeopleDataMt.
>> >> >> >> (holdsSometimeDuring
>> >> >> >> (TimeIntervalBetweenFn (YearFn 1800) (YearFn 1886))
>> >> >> >> (and
>> >> >> >> (isa JosephBell HumanAdultMale)
>> >> >> >> (firstName JosephBell "Joseph")
>> >> >> >> (lastName JosephBell "Bell")
>> >> >> >> (occupation JosephBell Doctor)))
>> >> >> >> (<wasPartiallyInspiredByFor>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > MW: Strings like this do not really mean anything at all.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The angle brackets were to indicate that such a predicate does not
>> >> > currently
>> >> >> exist in OpenCyc. The predicate would have to be defined before
>> >> >> it had a meaning, if that's what you mean.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I did not take the time to define the predicate for the purpose of
>> >> >> showing
>> >> > an
>> >> >> example of encoding the sentences. Most other examples of
>> >> >> ontology
>> >> > snippets
>> >> >> i've seen in the Ontolog Forum do not restrict themselves to
>> >> >> previously defined terms.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> There were several other questions, which i failed to answer
>> >> >> earlier, of
>> >> > the
>> >> >> form:
>> >> >> >> > Is the fictional character in (1) the same fictional
>> >> >> >> > character as in (4)?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> These are asking whether two things are "the same" in different
>> >> >> contexts.
>> >> >> Inter-contextual reasoning depends upon clearly stating what
>> >> >> contexts are being asked about, and from what context the answer
>> >> >> is being sought.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The context of (1) is "In our world" and refers to the creation of
>> >> >> a
>> >> > fictional
>> >> >> character. The fictional character has properties (of having a
>> >> >> creator,
>> >> > of
>> >> >> having a name, of having a creation date, and of being a character
>> >> >> in a specified fictional context.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The context of (4) is also "In our world" and refers to additional
>> >> > fictional
>> >> >> contexts in which the fictional character is a character.
>> >> >> (1) specifies properties about the fictional character at time T1,
>> >> >> while
>> >> > (4)
>> >> >> specifies properties about the fictional character at time T2,
>> >> >> both
>> >> > properties
>> >> >> "in our world".
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The question whether the two described fictional characters are
>> >> >> "the same"
>> >> >> seems to be similar to a question whether whether the baby Arthur
>> >> >> Conan
>> >> > Doyle
>> >> >> of 1860 was "the same" as the novelist who wrote <i>A Study in
>> >> >> Scarlet</i>
>> >> > in
>> >> >> 1886. I would accept one meaning of "the same" that would allow
>> >> >> these two things to be equal, and another meaning (represented by
>> >> >> another
>> >> >> predicate) which would allow these things to be different.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I would say that the answer to the question to whether the two
>> >> >> Sherlock Holmeses are the same the same would be the same as the
>> >> >> answer to whether
>> >> > the
>> >> >> two Arthur Conan Doyles are the same.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I'd like to use a predicate for "the same" that would allow the
>> >> >> answer to
>> >> > both
>> >> >> of these to be "yes".
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The question
>> >> >> >> > Is the fictional character in (5) the same fictional
>> >> >> >> > character as in (6)?
>> >> >> relates (5)'s "fictional world ... which ... Conan Doyle
>> conceived"
>> >> >> to a "possible real world" in which Conan Doyle "conceived of
>> >> >> [another]
>> >> > fictional
>> >> >> world".
>> >> >>
>> >> >> In the context of (5), there is no fictional character; Holmes is
>> >> >> a
>> >> > detective.
>> >> >> In (6), there is a fictional character with different properties
>> >> >> than in
>> >> > (1),
>> >> >> and a fictional context (6') in which Holmes is a baker. The real
>> >> >> person, Sherlock Holmes, in (5) is different from the real person,
>> >> >> Sherlock Holmes
>> >> > in
>> >> >> (6'), and different from the fictional characters named Sherlock
>> >> >> Holmes in both (1) and (6). The fictional characters named
>> >> >> Sherlock Holmes in
>> >> >> (1) and (6) have different properties and so are different.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > Is the fictional character in (1) the same fictional
>> >> >> >> > character as in (7)?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> In the fictional context (7), the character Sherlock Holmes was
>> >> >> created by
>> >> > a
>> >> >> different person than in context (1), and thus is a different
>> >> >> fictional character. However, the Sherlock Holmes world created
>> >> >> in fictional
>> >> > context
>> >> >> (7) is the same as the Sherlock Holmes world created in context
>> >> >> (1) -- which we have previously identified as context (5). This
>> >> >> means
>> >> > that
>> >> >> the detective Sherlock Holmes in (5) is the same as the detective
>> >> >> Sherlock Holmes in (7') -- everything true about one is true about
>> >> >> the other.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> -- doug foxvog
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > Regards
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Matthew West
>> >> >> > Information Junction
>> >> >> > Tel: +44 1489 880185
>> >> >> > Mobile: +44 750 3385279
>> >> >> > Skype: dr.matthew.west
>> >> >> > matthew.west@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> >> > http://www.informationjunction.co.uk/
>> >> >> > http://www.matthew-west.org.uk/
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > This email originates from Information Junction Ltd. Registered
>> >> >> > in England and Wales No. 6632177.
>> >> >> > Registered office: 2 Brookside, Meadow Way, Letchworth Garden
>> >> >> > City, Hertfordshire, SG6 3JE.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >> ArthurCannonDoyle JosephBell SherlockHolmes))
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > (4) In our world, the BBC commissioned a number of films
>> >> >> >> > featuring modern reinterpretations of the Conan Doyle
>> >> >> >> > stories, featuring a Holmes who in the worlds of those movies
>> >> >> >> > differed in some respects from the original source. [Written
>> >> >> >> > by Stephen Moffat, who isn't a Doctor, but writes one on TV]
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> inMt: MassMediaDataMt.
>> >> >> >> (thereExists ?FILM
>> >> >> >> (and
>> >> >> >> (isa ?FILM Movie-CW)
>> >> >> >> (thereExists ?COMMISSIONING
>> >> >> >> (and
>> >> >> >> (isa ?COMMISSIONING CommissioningSomething)
>> >> >> >> (<objectCommissioned> ?COMMISSIONING ?FILM)
>> >> >> >> (ist (ContextOfPCWFn ?FILM)
>> >> >> >> (isa SherlockHolmes AdultMaleHuman))))))
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > (5) In the fictional world in which our Conan Doyle
>> >> >> >> > conceived, Holmes was a detective, who resided at 221B Baker
> St.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> inMt: SherlockHolmesWorld.
>> >> >> >> (isa SherlockHolmes AdultMaleHuman) (occupation SherlockHolmes
>> >> >> >> Detective)
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> (isa TwoTwoOneBBakerSt HumanResidence) (streetAddressText
>> >> >> >> TwoTwoOneBBakerSt "212B Baker St.") (<residesAt> SherlockHolmes
>> >> >> >> TwoTwoOneBBakerSt)
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > (6) In a possible real world, that Conan Doyle may have
>> >> >> >> > conceived of a fictional world in which Holmes was a baker,
>> >> >> >> > who lived at 221B Detective St.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> inMt: UniversalVocabularyMt.
>> >> >> >> (ist PossibleRealWorld1324 DataMicrotheory) (genlMt
>> >> >> >> PossibleRealWorld1324
>> >> >> >> PeopleDataMt)
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> inMt: CurrentWorldDataCollectorMt-NonDualist.
>> >> >> >> (ist PossibleRealWorld1324 FictionalContext)
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> inMt: PossibleRealWorld1324.
>> >> >> >> (isa ConceivingOfSherlockHolmes CWCreation) (performedBy
>> >> >> >> ConceivingOfSherlockHolmes ArthurConanDoyle) (dateOfEvent
>> >> >> >> ConceivingOfSherlockHolmes (YearFn 1886)) (outputsCreated
>> >> >> >> ConceivingOfSherlockHolmes SherlockHolmesWorld2) (holdsAfter
>> >> >> >> ConceivingOfSherlockHolmes
>> >> >> >> (isa SherlockHolmesWorld2 FictionalContext)) (outputsCreated
>> >> >> >> ConceivingOfSherlockHolmes SherlockHolmes) (holdsAfter
>> >> >> >> ConceivingOfSherlockHolmes
>> >> >> >> (isa SherlockHolmes FictionalCharacter))
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> inMt: SherlockHolmesWorld2.
>> >> >> >> (isa SherlockHolmes AdultMaleHuman) (occupation SherlockHolmes
>> >> >> >> Baker)
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> (isa TwoTwoOneBBakerSt HumanResidence) (streetAddressText
>> >> >> >> TwoTwoOneBBakerSt "212B Detective St.") (<residesAt>
>> >> >> >> SherlockHolmes
>> >> >> >> TwoTwoOneBBakerSt)
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > (7) In yet another possible world, Bell may have been
>> >> >> >> > partially inspired by Conan Doyle to conceive of a Holmes and
>> >> >> >> > write fictional stories featuring that character
>> >> >> >> > word-for-word identical with the ones in our Conan Doyle
>> wrote.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > Is the fictional character in (1) the same fictional
>> >> >> >> > character as in (4)?
>> >> >> >> > Is the fictional character in (5) the same fictional
>> >> >> >> > character as in (6)?
>> >> >> >> > Is the fictional character in (1) the same fictional
>> >> >> >> > character as in (7)?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > In our world could two people in the year 1700 discuss the
>> >> >> >> > character Sherlock Holmes?
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> I'm having problems with the tense, here.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >> In our world, no one can do anything in the year 1700 -- what
>> >> >> >> happened, happened (Shroedinger's cat notwithstanding).
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Are you asking if it is possible that two people in the year
>> >> >> >> 1700 could have discussed the character Sherlock Holmes -- even
>> >> >> >> though no one did?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >> I figure that the possibility would have been greater than one
>> >> >> >> in a googleplex, (10^-(10^100) ) in that year. Two people
>> >> >> >> could have hypothesized an author who created a fictional
>> >> >> >> detective with the name "Sherlock Holmes".
>> >> >> >> The odds drop as things that they discuss about Holmes happen
>> >> >> >> to match up with features of the conceptual work.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > In our world, could two people in 2013 discuss real
>> >> >> >> > properties of the character Sherlock Holmes (e.g. the street
>> >> >> >> > address where the character was conceived).
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Yes. One can ask:
>> >> >> >> inMt: CurrentWorldDataCollectorMt-NonDualist
>> >> >> >> (thereExists ?RESIDENCE
>> >> >> >> (and
>> >> >> >> (eventOccursAt ConceivingOfSherlockHolmes ?RESIDENCE)
>> >> >> >> (holdsIn ConceivingOfSherlockHolmes
>> >> >> >> (streetAddressText ?RESIDENCE ?ADDRESS)))
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> -- doug f
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > Simon
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> _________________________________________________________________
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