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Re: [ontolog-forum] Modeling a money transferring scenario

To: ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
From: Ron Wheeler <rwheeler@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2011 14:11:33 -0500
Message-id: <4D276565.1020605@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
On 07/01/2011 1:56 PM, Rich Cooper wrote:

Hi Ron,

 

I got this snippet from GoodRelations at the URL you gave:

 

GoodRelations is a language that can be used to describe very precisely what your business is offering. Some people call GoodRelations a "data dictionary", others prefer "schema" or "ontology". The name, however, is not important. Important is that you can use GoodRelations to create a small data package that describes your products and their features and prices, your stores and opening hours, payment options and the like.

You simply paste this data package into your Web page using W3C's RDFa format. That's all!

That sounds like good news in itself!  However, the point I was trying to raise is that, AFTER formalizing each column on the form, new thoughts, products, requests, opportunities, special purchases, and a zillion other unplanned things can and ALWAYS do happen to a business.  Every business is a moving target, adapting shifting and changing to the economic variances they cannot control but can manage through better records.  

 

The problem is that the standards (Good Relations as well as others) cant possibly predefine every contingency that a business finds itself in.  The business with a fixed offering and a fixed customer base has a fixed lifetime before new methods, technologies and players enter the same market.  The change is rapid and intense. 

 

Summary: every business IT system changes faster than the database modeling crew can anticipate.  Therefore there are always loose text fields for comments, descriptions, CRM relationships, delivery methods and dates, and all kinds of other uncontrollable, changing situations in the environment. 

Some of these will migrate into more tightly defined objects as their true nature becomes clearer and the desire to apply automated rules exceeds the desire for flexibility.
Sometimes the list of allowed values (say for delivery method) will include "other" which will trigger a manual process and human intervention in an otherwise automated process.

 

Businesses have lots of text in their databases.  What can be done with that text?

 

Nothing wrong with text fields except that they can not be processed automatically (or sometimes even manually).  People got fevers and doctors treated them long before we had thermometers but no one is going to want to replace "Patient temp =103.2" with "patient was noticeably warm".

Ron

-Rich

 

Sincerely,

Rich Cooper

EnglishLogicKernel.com

Rich AT EnglishLogicKernel DOT com

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From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ron Wheeler
Sent: Friday, January 07, 2011 8:54 AM
To: ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] Modeling a money transferring scenario

 

Does this answer any of the questions about invoices, customers, etc.

http://www.heppnetz.de/projects/goodrelations/

Ron

On 07/01/2011 9:44 AM, Zhuk, Yefim wrote:

Rich,

 

Most of these items are pre-defined types that have type ID or abbreviated names in the data records.

Unstructured text fields in our data records are more exceptions than the rule.

 

I think we’ve switched from the main subject of the forum and maybe at this point can communicate directly.

 

With my greatest respect,

 

Yefim (Jeff)

 

 

 

From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Rich Cooper
Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2011 8:15 PM
To: '[ontolog-forum] '
Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] Modeling a money transferring scenario

 

Yefim,

 

How do you handle line item descriptions on invoices, discounts for specified customers, special price events, labor tracking by  product-customer-activity, or other unstructured text fields?

 

Curiously,

-Rich

 

Sincerely,

Rich Cooper

EnglishLogicKernel.com

Rich AT EnglishLogicKernel DOT com

9 4 9 \ 5 2 5 - 5 7 1 2


From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Zhuk, Yefim
Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2011 3:09 PM
To: [ontolog-forum]
Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] Modeling a money transferring scenario

 

Rich,

 

In our world most of actual data records are filled in with the numbers (very little if not zero semantic value) but this can be different for other companies where your methodology would make a lot of sense.

 

Thank you for clarifications,

 

Yefim (Jeff)

 

From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Rich Cooper
Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2011 5:54 PM
To: '[ontolog-forum] '
Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] Modeling a money transferring scenario

 

Hi Yefim,

 

I wasn't suggesting the data model be analyzed and reused - though fragments of that model could be clustered and usefully employed.  

 

Instead, look at the actual data itself, the zillions of rows that got actually stored in each column by people who were trying to designate some aspect of reality to the <computer/reader/analysts>.  Look for ways to leverage the domains as actually experienced.    

 

The data model describes the programmers' view, but the actual data comprise the users' views.  Not what was asked for, but what was given in response to each domain as presented to the users during the lifetime of the old database.  

 

Most system data models in need of a major upgrade are old, and need to be reworked, split, enhanced or even scrapped completely.  But the experience of the people who used the system, and the experience of those that <managed/used/analyzed> the system, is to some extent preserved in their language as used in the actual data.

 

People responded to the old system by attempting to record and designate things that, while not requested specifically, were important enough for them to record.  Those concepts are in the unstructured text columns from the database, and even from some of the structured columns where multiple interpretations were rife.  

 

The collection of those experienced concepts should be at least considered for the next generation of system development, which will likely have some semantic content, even if limited by the short steps we know how to take into semantics.  

 

One useful thing to do is to list the concepts you recognize in the database, and use it to guide writing the requirements document so you can test for completeness or conformance with known experiences.  

 

HTH,

-Rich

 

Sincerely,

Rich Cooper

EnglishLogicKernel.com

Rich AT EnglishLogicKernel DOT com

9 4 9 \ 5 2 5 - 5 7 1 2

 

-----Original Message-----
From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Zhuk, Yefim
Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2011 2:26 PM
To: [ontolog-forum]
Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] Modeling a money transferring scenario

 

Rich,

 

Thank you so much for your response and very interesting recommendations.

 

When we just started, we thought about using data models as an initial point for ontology development. It didn't work exactly as we planned. One of the reasons was that data models only represent some pieces of information, while some other pieces and relationships are captured by business logics in the applications.

 

Only after we've built some initial ontology skeleton, we were able to benefit from the synchronization between the data and ontology models. This is two-directional process. It's a manual process so far, as initial data design didn't have in mind to bring up semantic values.

 

I think that to elevate information to the knowledge level, we not only need better algorithms, standards and tools. One of the first steps is to improve the culture of capturing data in the first place. If we want computers to understand information, we need to be more precise and semantically rich in expressing this information.

 

Then, your methodology and algorithms would work much more efficiently on databases created by a new school of DBAs.

 

Thank you again,

 

Yefim (Jeff)

 

-----Original Message-----

From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Rich Cooper

Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2011 4:05 PM

To: '[ontolog-forum] '

Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] Modeling a money transferring scenario

 

Hi Yefim,

 

Do you have history databases (preferably large ones) with the data

available for examination?  You can detect relationships among the columns

by partitioning the column data values into groups with similarities in

syntax and/or semantics.  One way to do this is just to sort the column

values, then group the ones that are identical.  That reduces the variety by

the incidence factor.  Then find groups with identical signatures, using

various templates to generalize or specialize each template from each group

of values. 

 

Iterate until the classes and relationships are known better.  THEN develop

an ontology that covers at LEAST those explicit examples, handling each one

in a responsive way. 

 

Take a look at

 www.Englishlogickernel.com/patent-7-209-923-B1.PDF

(copy and paste into your browser URL slot)

 

The specification describes a way to discover the existing classes and

relationships among the transactions you know are really being performed.

At least that way your ontology will start with conformance to actual needs,

and you can add lots of ornaments as you wish.  You can theorize about the

data, experiment to see if your theories are valid, classify more deeply

based on the column value differences within each class, and observe the way

data was entered by the very people who will enter data into your new

ontology. 

 

To discover classes and relationships among patent documents as an example,

use the free downloadable Elk for Patents program suite. 

 

HTH,

-Rich

 

Sincerely,

Rich Cooper

EnglishLogicKernel.com

Rich AT EnglishLogicKernel DOT com

9 4 9 \ 5 2 5 - 5 7 1 2

 

-----Original Message-----

From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Zhuk, Yefim

Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2011 12:33 PM

To: [ontolog-forum]

Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] Modeling a money transferring scenario

 

I can share some initial steps of working on the Loan ontology at Sallie Mae

and participating in the collaborative work on financial ontology together

with EDMC and some other institutions.

 

1. Start with the main classes and subclasses like:

Actor (Customer, Borrower, etc.)

Event (FinancialTransaction, etc.)

Account (CheckingAccount, CreditAccount, etc.)

Currency (USD, etc.)

 

2. Start establishing relationships between the classes:

Customer transfers Currency to CheckingAccount

 

3. Create the rules to determine anomalies, fraud issues, etc.

If ....

 

-------------------

While creating the rules, you realize that you need to add and to change

your ontology.

 

Do this.

 

Remember, that you create your ontology for a specific purpose, so make the

closest loop to check if this purpose is met.

 

Hope, this helps you started,

 

Yefim (Jeff)

 

-----Original Message-----

From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Selcuk Bozdag

Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2011 7:29 AM

To: ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Subject: [ontolog-forum] Modeling a money transferring scenario

 

Hi ontologs,

 

I would like to get your ideas about modeling a financial

organization's (e.g. a bank)  money transaction ontology using OWL

(1). Suppose that a bank wants to track the accounts of the customers

in order to determine anomalies, fraud issues or just to ensure that

everything is OK at the end of the day. I have come up with a solution

which caused a discussion among my colleagues mostly ended with a

disagreement. Right below I am giving only a clipped portion of the

draft ontology at a glance.

 

The absolute classes(i.e. concepts) are Bank, Money, Customer and

Account. When it comes to represent a money transfer between two

accounts, I suggested to create another class named "MoneyTransfer" on

which one can create object properties such as transferDate, amount

etc. On the flip side, others put the MoneyTransfer class aside and

preferred to create an object property named "transfersMoney" which

has a domain and range of Account. However it is obvious that

transfersMoney property is just a relation between to individuals

representing none of the date and amount information.

 

I would greatly appreciate if you could explain your point of view and

show me what the alternatives could possibly be. I also would be

thankful if you refer any other ontology regarding that issue.

 

Cheers,

 

Selcuk

 

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