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Re: [ontolog-forum] triadic sign relations in practice

To: doug@xxxxxxxxxx, "[ontolog-forum]" <ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
From: Mike Bennett <mbennett@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 13:04:43 +0100
Message-id: <4C7506DB.5010105@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Absolutely. The "Context" is precisely the thing in which the second 
order definition applies (essentially a third order thing, as I 
understand it). So the context of ancient Egyptian domestic life is one 
in which the "Shard as trash" is defined.    (01)

So in that sense I would say they are definitional - the properties of 
the second order thing apply to it as a second order thing. For 
instance, the "Borrower" of a loan has a property that it is a party to 
the Loan Contract, as well as the property of its identity as some legal 
entity.    (02)

Mike    (03)

doug foxvog wrote:
> On Tue, August 24, 2010 20:54, Mike Bennett said:
>
> Re a "pottery shard made in Egypt 5,000 years ago [being] trash from a
> broken pot [then but a] priceless artifact detailing an important time in
> human history [now]:
>
>   
>> Aren't you in so doing, conflating a "thing in itself" with a "thing as
>> defined in some context" i.e. ordinary old fashioned first versus second
>> order concepts?
>>     
>
> The difference is contextual, but need not be considered definitional.
> What is being referred to is an object having different properties (being
> valued as trash or as a priceless artifact) in different (temporal and
> cultural) contexts.
>
>   
>> This is the same as for example saying that a person may
>> be a mother and a pilot but is still the same person, or that a business
>> entity may be at one time a securities issuer, a contract counterparty
>> and a customer.
>>     
>
> Such combination of properties could be simultaneously true in the same
> context.  The two valuations of the pottery shard require different
> contexts.
>
>   
>> Both the first- and second-order concepts are meaningful terms and so
>> potentially have a place in some meaningful model of the world.
>>     
>
> Agreed.
>
> -- doug
>
>   
>> Mike
>>
>> Ron Wheeler wrote:
>>     
>>> On 24/08/2010 1:59 PM, Rich Cooper wrote:
>>>       
>>>> Hi Ferenc,
>>>>
>>>> Iím trying to understand why you apply space-time to identity
>>>> recognition. If Aristotle had an idea (the syllogism), that idea is
>>>> the same one we use today, and often debate the intricacies of on
>>>> this list.
>>>>
>>>> Since itís the same idea, but with a different space-time boundary,
>>>> it seems identical to itself for that reason Ė time and space do not
>>>> bound abstract concept objects like they sometimes do with physical
>>>> objects. But even there, the pottery shard made in Egypt 5,000 years
>>>> ago is still the same pottery shard found by some Indiana Jones in
>>>> 1935. So even there, the time space bracketing isnít necessary or
>>>> even useful, IMHO.
>>>>
>>>>         
>>> Are you sure? The pottery shard made in Egypt 5,000 years ago was
>>> trash from a broken pot. The current view of that would be more along
>>> the lines of priceless artifact detailing an important time in human
>>> history.
>>>       
>>>> Time and space are good bracketing properties for some applications,
>>>> but not for all kinds of objects when identity is being modeled, IMHO.
>>>>
>>>> Re the observerís relationship with the object, it seems that the
>>>> <sign,interpretANT,interpretER> says it all; potentially, everyone
>>>> could interpret any sign in any way they please. So identity in that
>>>> universe has to be conditioned on who is doing the identification.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> -Rich
>>>>
>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>
>>>> Rich Cooper
>>>>
>>>> EnglishLogicKernel.com
>>>>
>>>> Rich AT EnglishLogicKernel DOT com
>>>>
>>>> 9 4 9 \ 5 2 5 - 5 7 1 2
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> *From:* ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] *On Behalf Of *FERENC
>>>> KOVACS
>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 24, 2010 1:56 AM
>>>> *To:* ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> *Subject:* [ontolog-forum] triadic sign relations in practice
>>>>
>>>> Following the law of identity an object is identical with itself if
>>>> it exists at a particular place in space and a particular point of
>>>> time. This is like duplicating an object. So therefore two seemingly
>>>> identical objects are only identical with each other, if we disregard
>>>> space an time parameters. This is called abstarction,
>>>> disaambiguation, decontextualization, etc.
>>>>
>>>> But if you accept that an object has two facets, namely form and
>>>> content, or if you accept that no claim on identity may be made
>>>> without including the aspect of the observer, then it must be clear,
>>>> that either you have a new situation when the object is seen from a
>>>> different aspect by the same observer, or you have another observer.
>>>> Both of those aspects mean that you have a relation between the
>>>> observer and the object observed, in other word the observer relates
>>>> the object to him/herself.
>>>>
>>>> Since objects have names (even concepts do) which are forms, we are
>>>> faced with the problem of defining and harmonizing the associated
>>>> content (usually properties) in each observer to achive mutual
>>>> understanding.
>>>>
>>>> I admit that space and time parameters may be dropped for some
>>>> purpose, but as Physics teaches us, the aspect of the observer
>>>> cannot. Otherwise you are all talking to yourselves.
>>>>
>>>> Ferenc
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>         
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
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>>>       
>> --
>> Mike Bennett
>> Director
>> Hypercube Ltd.
>> 89 Worship Street
>> London EC2A 2BF
>> Tel: +44 (0) 20 7917 9522
>>     
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>>     
>
>
> =============================================================
> doug foxvog    doug@xxxxxxxxxx   http://ProgressiveAustin.org
>
> "I speak as an American to the leaders of my own nation. The great
> initiative in this war is ours. The initiative to stop it must be ours."
>     - Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
> =============================================================
>
>  
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>       (04)


-- 
Mike Bennett
Director
Hypercube Ltd. 
89 Worship Street
London EC2A 2BF
Tel: +44 (0) 20 7917 9522
Mob: +44 (0) 7721 420 730
www.hypercube.co.uk
Registered in England and Wales No. 2461068    (05)


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