Hi Mike, (01)
Thanks for your inputs, but I may be missing some kind of background for
understanding the objection you raised. My interpretation is that
properties obey superposition, like electrical current flows and potentials
do. So if the mother is also a pilot, there is no conflict. She could also
be a PTA member and a salesman for fishing gear, but she is still a mother
with no diminution of motherhood even when piloting. (02)
So I guess I don't understand the objection you raised. Could you state it
a little differently please, so I might get an epistemological handle on it
in the same way you have? (03)
Thanks for your contribution,
-Rich (04)
Sincerely,
Rich Cooper
EnglishLogicKernel.com
Rich AT EnglishLogicKernel DOT com
9 4 9 \ 5 2 5 - 5 7 1 2 (05)
-----Original Message-----
From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Mike Bennett
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 5:55 PM
To: [ontolog-forum]
Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] triadic sign relations in practice (06)
Aren't you in so doing, conflating a "thing in itself" with a "thing as
defined in some context" i.e. ordinary old fashioned first versus second
order concepts? This is the same as for example saying that a person may
be a mother and a pilot but is still the same person, or that a business
entity may be at one time a securities issuer, a contract counterparty
and a customer. (07)
Both the first- and second-order concepts are meaningful terms and so
potentially have a place in some meaningful model of the world. (08)
Mike (09)
Ron Wheeler wrote:
> On 24/08/2010 1:59 PM, Rich Cooper wrote:
>>
>> Hi Ferenc,
>>
>> I'm trying to understand why you apply space-time to identity
>> recognition. If Aristotle had an idea (the syllogism), that idea is
>> the same one we use today, and often debate the intricacies of on
>> this list.
>>
>> Since it's the same idea, but with a different space-time boundary,
>> it seems identical to itself for that reason - time and space do not
>> bound abstract concept objects like they sometimes do with physical
>> objects. But even there, the pottery shard made in Egypt 5,000 years
>> ago is still the same pottery shard found by some Indiana Jones in
>> 1935. So even there, the time space bracketing isn't necessary or
>> even useful, IMHO.
>>
> Are you sure? The pottery shard made in Egypt 5,000 years ago was
> trash from a broken pot. The current view of that would be more along
> the lines of priceless artifact detailing an important time in human
> history.
>>
>> Time and space are good bracketing properties for some applications,
>> but not for all kinds of objects when identity is being modeled, IMHO.
>>
>> Re the observer's relationship with the object, it seems that the
>> <sign,interpretANT,interpretER> says it all; potentially, everyone
>> could interpret any sign in any way they please. So identity in that
>> universe has to be conditioned on who is doing the identification.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> -Rich
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Rich Cooper
>>
>> EnglishLogicKernel.com
>>
>> Rich AT EnglishLogicKernel DOT com
>>
>> 9 4 9 \ 5 2 5 - 5 7 1 2
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> *From:* ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] *On Behalf Of *FERENC
>> KOVACS
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 24, 2010 1:56 AM
>> *To:* ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> *Subject:* [ontolog-forum] triadic sign relations in practice
>>
>> Following the law of identity an object is identical with itself if
>> it exists at a particular place in space and a particular point of
>> time. This is like duplicating an object. So therefore two seemingly
>> identical objects are only identical with each other, if we disregard
>> space an time parameters. This is called abstarction,
>> disaambiguation, decontextualization, etc.
>>
>> But if you accept that an object has two facets, namely form and
>> content, or if you accept that no claim on identity may be made
>> without including the aspect of the observer, then it must be clear,
>> that either you have a new situation when the object is seen from a
>> different aspect by the same observer, or you have another observer.
>> Both of those aspects mean that you have a relation between the
>> observer and the object observed, in other word the observer relates
>> the object to him/herself.
>>
>> Since objects have names (even concepts do) which are forms, we are
>> faced with the problem of defining and harmonizing the associated
>> content (usually properties) in each observer to achive mutual
>> understanding.
>>
>> I admit that space and time parameters may be dropped for some
>> purpose, but as Physics teaches us, the aspect of the observer
>> cannot. Otherwise you are all talking to yourselves.
>>
>> Ferenc
>>
>>
>>
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