I'm not relating them to each other by way of inheritance. Rather, the
relative thing has "has identity" as an object property with a range
that is the independent thing. (01)
For example if <- means "is a" i.e. generalization relation, then we have: (02)
Thing <- Independent Thing <- Person (03)
Thing <- Relative Thing <- Mother
Thing <- Relative Thing <- Pilot (04)
Mother "has identity" Person
Pilot "has identity" Person (05)
Regards, (06)
Mike
PS with thanks to John for the example, it's still the one I use most often (07)
Rich Cooper wrote:
> Hi Mike,
>
> Thanks for your inputs, but I may be missing some kind of background for
> understanding the objection you raised. My interpretation is that
> properties obey superposition, like electrical current flows and potentials
> do. So if the mother is also a pilot, there is no conflict. She could also
> be a PTA member and a salesman for fishing gear, but she is still a mother
> with no diminution of motherhood even when piloting.
>
> So I guess I don't understand the objection you raised. Could you state it
> a little differently please, so I might get an epistemological handle on it
> in the same way you have?
>
> Thanks for your contribution,
> -Rich
>
> Sincerely,
> Rich Cooper
> EnglishLogicKernel.com
> Rich AT EnglishLogicKernel DOT com
> 9 4 9 \ 5 2 5 - 5 7 1 2
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Mike Bennett
> Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 5:55 PM
> To: [ontolog-forum]
> Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] triadic sign relations in practice
>
> Aren't you in so doing, conflating a "thing in itself" with a "thing as
> defined in some context" i.e. ordinary old fashioned first versus second
> order concepts? This is the same as for example saying that a person may
> be a mother and a pilot but is still the same person, or that a business
> entity may be at one time a securities issuer, a contract counterparty
> and a customer.
>
> Both the first- and second-order concepts are meaningful terms and so
> potentially have a place in some meaningful model of the world.
>
> Mike
>
> Ron Wheeler wrote:
>
>> On 24/08/2010 1:59 PM, Rich Cooper wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Ferenc,
>>>
>>> I'm trying to understand why you apply space-time to identity
>>> recognition. If Aristotle had an idea (the syllogism), that idea is
>>> the same one we use today, and often debate the intricacies of on
>>> this list.
>>>
>>> Since it's the same idea, but with a different space-time boundary,
>>> it seems identical to itself for that reason - time and space do not
>>> bound abstract concept objects like they sometimes do with physical
>>> objects. But even there, the pottery shard made in Egypt 5,000 years
>>> ago is still the same pottery shard found by some Indiana Jones in
>>> 1935. So even there, the time space bracketing isn't necessary or
>>> even useful, IMHO.
>>>
>>>
>> Are you sure? The pottery shard made in Egypt 5,000 years ago was
>> trash from a broken pot. The current view of that would be more along
>> the lines of priceless artifact detailing an important time in human
>> history.
>>
>>> Time and space are good bracketing properties for some applications,
>>> but not for all kinds of objects when identity is being modeled, IMHO.
>>>
>>> Re the observer's relationship with the object, it seems that the
>>> <sign,interpretANT,interpretER> says it all; potentially, everyone
>>> could interpret any sign in any way they please. So identity in that
>>> universe has to be conditioned on who is doing the identification.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> -Rich
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>>
>>> Rich Cooper
>>>
>>> EnglishLogicKernel.com
>>>
>>> Rich AT EnglishLogicKernel DOT com
>>>
>>> 9 4 9 \ 5 2 5 - 5 7 1 2
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> *From:* ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] *On Behalf Of *FERENC
>>> KOVACS
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 24, 2010 1:56 AM
>>> *To:* ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> *Subject:* [ontolog-forum] triadic sign relations in practice
>>>
>>> Following the law of identity an object is identical with itself if
>>> it exists at a particular place in space and a particular point of
>>> time. This is like duplicating an object. So therefore two seemingly
>>> identical objects are only identical with each other, if we disregard
>>> space an time parameters. This is called abstarction,
>>> disaambiguation, decontextualization, etc.
>>>
>>> But if you accept that an object has two facets, namely form and
>>> content, or if you accept that no claim on identity may be made
>>> without including the aspect of the observer, then it must be clear,
>>> that either you have a new situation when the object is seen from a
>>> different aspect by the same observer, or you have another observer.
>>> Both of those aspects mean that you have a relation between the
>>> observer and the object observed, in other word the observer relates
>>> the object to him/herself.
>>>
>>> Since objects have names (even concepts do) which are forms, we are
>>> faced with the problem of defining and harmonizing the associated
>>> content (usually properties) in each observer to achive mutual
>>> understanding.
>>>
>>> I admit that space and time parameters may be dropped for some
>>> purpose, but as Physics teaches us, the aspect of the observer
>>> cannot. Otherwise you are all talking to yourselves.
>>>
>>> Ferenc
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>
>
> (08)
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