ontolog-forum
[Top] [All Lists]

## Re: [ontolog-forum] rant on pseudoscience

 To: "[ontolog-forum]" ravi sharma Sun, 24 Jan 2010 12:04:46 -0500
 John   Interjecting hopefully without disturbing the chain of thought, I want to learn from others perception on three concepts: Model Theory, Mathematics and Science. From my recall of previous contributions you made to these topics individually, I recall that math can express a model theory precisely in the realm of validity of the parameters (for example linear, quadratic, second order tensor, etc.) Nature however defies closed form solutions (example: relativistic corrections to Newton's law for planetary spacecraft trajectories). How are models theorized, I think Logic and math interplay in the accurate realization of Models but are Model Theories described simply somewhere? Rick Murphy also addressed some aspects in past? Regards. Thanks. Ravi On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 12:13 AM, John F. Sowa wrote: Avril and Rob, Your examples are consistent with what I said:JFS>> First of all, it is essential to distinguish empirical sciences >> from pure mathematics.  In empirical sciences, the ultimate test  >> is agreement of predictions with observations.  Mathematics, >> however, is not an empirical science.RF> Greg Chaitin might have issue with that statement.JFS> No.  He wouldn't object to that statement... JFS> Before trying to prove a general theorem about a function,  > mathematicians usually start by performing "quasi-experiments" > to "observe" how the function behaves on typical values. > > But those so-called observations are thought experiments,  > even when the thinking is carried out by a computer. > They are not observations of the physical world.AS> Hilary Putnam uses the term quasi-empirical with at least slightly  > different meaning in [1]. For example, calculus can be taken as > quasi-empirical mathematics: it works perfectly with or without any > mathematical proofs of it, although empirical proofs are available. That is consistent with the above:  Mathematicians perform thoughtexperiments.  The use of informal reasoning instead of proofs isirrelevant.  People were using arithmetic and simple geometry forthousands of years before they discovered formal methods of proof. Mathematics is an aid to clear, precise thinking any subject,but it does not depend on the nature of the world, and it doesnot make any claims about the world.  (Many mathematicians,following Plato, talk as if the mathematical structures exist in some Platonic heaven.  But other mathematicians maintainthat such a heaven is a pure construction of their imagination.In either case, that heaven is independent of the physical world.)The test cases and thought experiments are the same kinds of things that programmers do when they're writing and debugging their code.They observe the effects of their own choice of rules and data.They are not making observations or claims about the world.RF> Here's a excerpt from Chaitin's "Randomness in Arithmetic and  > the Decline & Fall of Reductionism in Pure Mathematics" ... GC> 5. Experimental mathematics  > Okay, let me say a little bit in the minutes I have left about > what this all means. > > First of all, the connection with physics....Those are good examples.  Please continue reading and note:  1. Chaitin is comparing the techniques and methodologies of    physics to the techniques and methodologies of experimental    (or quasi-experimental) mathematics. 2. But in every case, the mathematical "experiments" are     thought experiments (which may be aided by computer, but    the simpler cases can be done mentally or with paper and    pencil). 3. In the "quasi-experiments" by Chaitin or Putnam, the results     do not depend in any way on the nature of the physical world,    nor do they make any predictions about the physical world.    Exactly the same results could be derived by aliens in a    universe with very different laws. John _________________________________________________________________Message Archives: http://ontolog.cim3.net/forum/ontolog-forum/ Config Subscr: http://ontolog.cim3.net/mailman/listinfo/ontolog-forum/Unsubscribe: mailto:ontolog-forum-leave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Shared Files: http://ontolog.cim3.net/file/Community Wiki: http://ontolog.cim3.net/wiki/To join: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?WikiHomePage#nid1J To Post: mailto:ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx-- Thanks.Ravi(Dr. Ravi Sharma)313 204 1740 Mobile ``` _________________________________________________________________ Message Archives: http://ontolog.cim3.net/forum/ontolog-forum/ Config Subscr: http://ontolog.cim3.net/mailman/listinfo/ontolog-forum/ Unsubscribe: mailto:ontolog-forum-leave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Shared Files: http://ontolog.cim3.net/file/ Community Wiki: http://ontolog.cim3.net/wiki/ To join: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?WikiHomePage#nid1J To Post: mailto:ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx    (01) ```
 Current Thread Re: [ontolog-forum] rant on pseudoscience, (continued) Re: [ontolog-forum] rant on pseudoscience, John F. Sowa Re: [ontolog-forum] rant on pseudoscience, Rich Cooper Re: [ontolog-forum] rant on pseudoscience, John F. Sowa Re: [ontolog-forum] rant on pseudoscience, Paola Di Maio Re: [ontolog-forum] rant on pseudoscience, Duane Nickull Re: [ontolog-forum] rant on pseudoscience, Paola Di Maio Re: [ontolog-forum] rant on pseudoscience, ravi sharma Re: [ontolog-forum] rant on pseudoscience, Avril Styrman Re: [ontolog-forum] rant on pseudoscience, Rob Freeman Re: [ontolog-forum] rant on pseudoscience, John F. Sowa Re: [ontolog-forum] rant on pseudoscience, ravi sharma <= Re: [ontolog-forum] rant on pseudoscience, John F. Sowa Re: [ontolog-forum] rant on pseudoscience, Ali Hashemi Re: [ontolog-forum] rant on pseudoscience, ravi sharma Re: [ontolog-forum] Approximation (was: rant on pseudoscience), Pat Hayes Re: [ontolog-forum] Approximation, John F. Sowa Re: [ontolog-forum] Approximation, Rich Cooper Re: [ontolog-forum] rant on pseudoscience, Pat Hayes Re: [ontolog-forum] rant on pseudoscience, Rob Freeman Re: [ontolog-forum] rant on pseudoscience, David Eddy Re: [ontolog-forum] rant on pseudoscience, ravi sharma