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Re: [ontolog-forum] UK apology for its treatment of Turing

To: Pavithra <pavithra_kenjige@xxxxxxxxx>
Cc: "[ontolog-forum]" <ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
From: Paola Di Maio <paola.dimaio@xxxxxxxxx>
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 17:25:55 +0100
Message-id: <4a4804720909120925n5c494720l287a65dba1ab66e8@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>

Thanks for the detailed history lesson.

It provides lots of good example of how everything comes out of everything else,
and how reality is a complex ensemble of dependencies, consequences, causes and effects and paradoxes.

 My only quibble with the facts and figures you quote below is that they are notional, we have few certainties, very likely records are partial and incomplete, thus reality
is even more intricate than what our documentation can explain and proof

For the purpose of ontology, or Ontology?, the discussion illustrates how a factual representation, however accurate and documented, is always likely to be only partial account of what reality is (we could then enter into a probablilty discussion), and  what is 'knowable' a very old argument on this list

I remember definitely posting a refernce to Sanskirt years ago - can't remember exactly in reference to what point , probably discussing logic, or the notion of Cause, in greek adhya
or something - Glad to see more references coming up from you and Ravi


On Sat, Sep 12, 2009 at 4:25 PM, Pavithra <pavithra_kenjige@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Thank you for providing the link  about Reg Veda.  There are four Vedas and 108 Upanishads.  There is a interfaith organization that has recorded some of this information and has provided some justice to it, and you can find it in    
"Indic Culture", from the land of the Hindus has evolved over 5000 years!  Trying to handle any one part of it does not provide justice or understanding of the culture.   Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism, etc.. some of the religions that evolved from this culture.
Like in "Abrahamic Culture", talking of just Adam & Eve or Torahs or 10 commandments by part is not  going to provide justice to the culture.    Judaism, Christianity ( 21 centuries old),  Islam ( 15 centuries old) are some of the great religions that have evolved from Abrahamic culture. 
Explaining " Indic Culture", which evolved from Indus valley civilization is as hard as explaining "Abrahamic Culture"!    The history, religions, culture gets interwoven and makes such a task complex. The facts of history of man kind have been destroyed intermittently.    That makes it even harder.
There are historical facts available for certain migration factors! For example, Aryans Invaded India from Iranian Plateaus around 1500BC.     But Iran/Iraq was later invaded by Muslims and are now Muslim countries.  However  at that time Zoroastrians from Iran migrated again to India and there are 200,000 still live in this world and India has the most number of them.  Now they are called Parsis.  Well known Indian businessmen like Tatas belong to that community!
Then were 400 people from Syria, migrated to Kerala during 40 AD  and their descendents are called Syrian Christians!   After all these years, if you ask them who they are, they will still say that they are Syrian Christians!   Around1600 AD few   ( "white" for lack better understanding, pardon my reference) Jews moved to certain parts of India including Kerala, they are called paradesi Yahudis.  They had their own synagogues and community!  Only few people married local people, few remained as a community, rest moved to western world!  Then there were African, Portuguese, Greek, British, Moguls, Chinese, and Roman Catholic missionaries and protestant Christian missionaries and the rest!  
Separation of Hindu Land..
Pakistan (The Sindu/ Hindu river basin where Indus Valley Civilization started), and Bangla Desh ( The sacred Ganges River basin)  was separated from India into Muslim countries during Independence.  Chinese took over Tibet, the birth place of Buddha and Buddhism!
India is a molten pot of cultures!  India is considered a secular nation! Yet it has retained some of its original flavor and call itself the land of Hindus. Hindu Law holds good for Hindus even today!  One theory says that Caste system was developed initially to support seggretation of duties and later became rigid and defined the “class “of the people.  There is caste and sub caste within all religions!  In Christianity, there are subcategories like Catholic, Sirian, Jacobite, Marthamite, Just Protestant ( Anglican..) etc..    There are records indicate that 70% Indian Christians were Dalit converts! In olden days some people who were not allowed to study, they  converted to Christianity and got some education.  Even today Catholic Institutes are fee based, however  Catholics children get CCF funding and can study without any fees! But other religion children have to pay the fees! Funding is not based on merit but religion or sponsorships!  
In Islam there are subcategories as well..   Even though India was divided into Pakistan and India, due to Muslim’s request for a separate country,  there are still 140million Muslims in India and they have their own communities, masks and schools and universities.  India does have third largest Muslim population in the world!
India has a tough job maintaining the balance to create racial harmony, and not to erupt racial horror!  Government and law supports equality, secularism!
Spirituality and harmony!
Spirituality is used to preach love and brotherhood among all !  Hinduism is not a monolithic religion but a philosophy of life. More like Greek Philosophy.  Everything is part of God!  For example, Buddha or Jain gurus were supported well by the Hindu kings and absorbed their teachings ( were not punished or killed for starting a new sector of the religion)  unlike in Abrahamic Culture, where Christ was punished!   Some of the spiritual teachings of Upanishads and Gita is very intriguing and very current to modern times.  Hindu gods like Krishna, Rama and Shiva considered to have darker skin tones and came from different backgrounds and Bhrama, Vishnu considered have lighter / fairer skin tones.    Women were also goddess of power, wealth , knowledge etc.   Animals and trees and all the living being are represented as gods of one form or another.   Which brought more love and harmony then hate among people of different race and color!
India was to old world what pre 9/11 America was to modern world! Open arms to immigrants to other cultures who were in pursuit of knowledge and happiness!  But somewhere along the line, lost the wealth, both materialistic and knowledge wise to invading nations and suffered!
This is just my take on this, to correct my error of opening my mouth about a culture as intriguing as India in a Ontolog community!
Pardon me again!  

--- On Sat, 9/12/09, Paola Di Maio <paola.dimaio@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

From: Paola Di Maio <paola.dimaio@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] UK apology for its treatment of Turing
To: "[ontolog-forum]" <ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Saturday, September 12, 2009, 5:08 AM

Education / truth  alone help remove darkness around such atrocities!     Hindus celebrate Diwali,  like Christmas, a festival of light in symbolism to enlighten those that are in the dark!

I  learn that the caste system is still firmy in place in Indian society
Not long ago a fellow lecturer, an educated guy with a degree or two, Java programmer, very switched on, and overall  devent person, announced proudly and  with a big smile ' I am going to marry a girl from my caste' (arranged marriage).

 I answered 'congrats but err,, wasnt the cast system abolished some time ago?' he gazed away, as if he had never been given that particular history lesson

 There are thousands of broken heart stories cause of cast system, indian friends tell me (people who love each other cannot marry cause families will cause a fuss)

In the west we dont have a cast system but  imho class system is still de facto firmly in place in society too, certainly to some extent.

The literature about the theories caste system make a great read, example
http://adaniel.tripod.com/origin.htm, which shows the great cognitive confusion
that humanity is burdened with

Its derived from millennia of poor understanding or deliberate manipulation or a combination of both of scraps of vedic liteturature (rather cryptic stuff), left to the interpretation of a handful of pompous representatives of the learned society

Funny enough, many religions (and science can be a religion too to some) dogmatize and use knowledge to indoctrinate about a thing or other - all made up by humans nothing to do with Divinity  per se. I put it down to very bad knowledgef

(in fact true liberation is  pursued by renunciation to society and its values

The lesson that we can learn, and probably the only portion of this thread relevant  to this forum, is that a lot of deviation can arise from misrepresentation of knowledge
and a lot of ignorance suffering and evil can be caused by accepting
what is transmitted by society at face value and without questioning and without proper inquiry and demistification.
Ant that it takes courage and self sacrifice to do that...



-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

Paola Di Maio
Networked Research Lab, UK


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