At 8:58 AM -0800 1/21/08, Duane Nickull wrote:
>What about a site like http://www.audi.com ?
>
>IT automatically redirects to another site based on geographical location.
>I am in Canada but get the US audi site. In Germany, one would encounter
>the german site.
>
>It is a better example? (01)
Its an example of why the W3C TAG insist on
referring to 'web resources' or 'information
resources' rather than anything as concrete as a
Web page. They want to be able to say, in cases
like this, that there is a single "thing" at the
end of that one URI, which is able to respond in
a variety of languages, and its that "thing" that
is denoted by the URI. There are a number of
cases like this, sometimes resolved by Mime type,
eg if your browser is set to read aloud rather
than display visually, it might get sent
different HTML than a conventional browser is
sent. BUt it would be the same 'web resource',
just webarch:represented differently. (02)
Pat (03)
>
>D
>
>
>On 1/20/08 4:33 PM, "John Black" <JohnBlack@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>> Re: [ontolog-forum] CL, CG, IKL and the relationship betwThe
>> following is an attempt to summarize (and reformat in plain text)
>> a long discussion about the context-independence of URIs so that
>> I can respond to Pat's last response.
>>
>> Originally I lamented that it was unfortunate that the W3C's
>> architecture documents did not distinguish between the
>> establishment of a URI and each instance of its use. My complaint
>> was that this prevented using the context of the use of an
>> instance of the URI when interpreting it.
>>
>> PH> The key point is, what would count as a 'context' for a
>>> context-dependent URI?
>>
>> PH> Consider this scenario. You, sitting at your computer, use
>>> a URi to browse an interesting website, and you send me an
>>> email telling me about it and citing the URI. I then, sitting
>>> at my
>>> computer, two days later on the other side of the planet, type
>>> that URI into my browser. We expect that we will see the same
>>> website: but what do our two contexts have in common? It might
>>> be almost nothing: the times, places, browsers, countries,
>>> users,
>>> OSs, maybe even cultural and linguistic settings, can be
>>> completely
>>> different. It is inherent to the Web that the contexts of
>>> publication
>>> and of use of a URI can be arbitrarily different and far apart
>>> on
>>> every dimension, yet the URI is supposed to retain its meaning.
>>
>> JB>> In the following example, the differing 'contexts' are the
>> different
>> web-pages upon which occurrences of a URI appear.
>>
>> JB>> Your scenario is not applicable here. We need the following
>>>> scenario. You, sitting at your computer, use URI-A to browse
>>>> to an interesting web-page upon which you see a small graphic,
>>>> retrieved by an occurrence of URI-CD, which refers to an
>>>> assertion that the web-page you are viewing is written in
>>>> valid XHTML 1.0.
>>
>> JB>> This is URI-CD: http://www.w3.org/Icons/valid-xhtml10
>>
>> JB>> What this URI is intended to denote is this assertion (from
>> the
>>>> W3C help page: http://validator.w3.org/docs/help.html) "To
>>>> show
>>>> readers that one has taken some care to create an
>>>> interoperable
>>>> Web page, a "W3C valid" badge may be displayed (here, the
>>>> "valid XHTML 1.0" badge) on any page that validates."
>>
>> PH> The URI denotes that badge/image/web-resource/thingie.
>>> There is only one of it, and it, itself, is never used to make
>>> any
>>> assertions. The HTTP protocols supply us with a copy
>>> (webarch:representation) of it, and we can then use that copy
>>> to human:assert something about the page the copied image
>>> is on. OK, lets agree on all that.
>>
>> PH> But notice that the [speech] 'acts' here ...<snip>... are
>>> intrinsically dynamic things, events that occur in time and
>>> within a social context (a 'web conversation', perhaps), not
> >> textual or even indexical entities. It is the act of displaying
>>> the "place order" button which constitutes the making of the
>>> offer, not the button itself.
>>
>> PH> The name of the badge denotes the badge. USING a TOKEN of
>>> that badge in a certain way MAKES an assertion. But the name of
>>> the badge doesn't denote the assertion made with a copy of the
>>> badge. It also doesn't denote the web page on which the copy
>>> occurs, or the time of day when it was published, or a host of
>>> other things closely associated with it.
>>
>> PH> You miss my point. I am conceding that one can use the image
>>> to make an assertion. My point is that the image is not
>>> identical
>>> with the assertional act that uses it, nor with the content
>>> that is
>>> expressed by such an act.
>>
>> What then is the assertional act that makes this image into an
>> assertion? Just this, I propose, a person takes the assertional
>> act of embedding a token of that URI,
>> "http://www.w3.org/Icons/valid-xhtml10";, into her HTML page and
>> publishing the page to the web. And because the resulting
>> assertion is indexical, the assertion thus made is different for
>> each web-page that a TOKEN of that URI is embedded into. Are we
>> still agreed?
>>
>> Now consider the word, "I", the first-person English pronoun.
>> There is just one English word "I". Copies of it, tokens as you
>> say, when embedded in speech or text, can be used by a speaker to
>> denote that speaker who so embeds it. To denote (or name) that
>> word we use a token of it, in quotes. And we say of the word
>> named "I" that it denotes the speaker that embeds it in a
>> sentence, that it is indexical, etc. Can't we similarly say of
>> the URI named "http://www.w3.org/Icons/valid-xhtml10";, that it
>> denotes the assertion which is made when a web-page author takes
>> the assertional act of embedding a token of it in his web-page,
>> that it is indexical, etc.? You keep insisting that the URI
>> denotes the image, but to me that would be like saying the word,
>> "I", denotes some 16-point, black-ink image of the letter "I" on
>> a paper page. To me both the black-ink "I" image and the w3c
>> badge image are just vehicles for delivering content.
>>
>> By the way, I would like to point out that some of the questions
>> in this discussion may apply also to the ISO Common Logic (CL)
>> specification. In the CL Requirements section 5.1.3, "Common
>> Logic should be easy and natural for use on the Web" there is
>> this statement, "b. URIs and URI references should be usable as
>> names in the language". And in the "...syntax and semantics"
>> section 6.3.1 "Importations and named phrases", where it states,
>> "All texts which are published and identified on a network
>> *shall* be mutually interpretable with all other texts on the
>> network which can import them, over the same universe of
>> reference and domain of discourse, and with their vocabularies
>> merged."
>>
>> John Black
>> www.kashori.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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