<HomerSimpsonVoice>D'oh!</HomerSimpsonVoice> (01)
I have failed to consider the Representation/Concept/Referent triangle. (02)
/d (03)
On 1/21/08 9:23 AM, "Pat Hayes" <phayes@xxxxxxx> wrote: (04)
> At 8:58 AM -0800 1/21/08, Duane Nickull wrote:
>> What about a site like http://www.audi.com ?
>>
>> IT automatically redirects to another site based on geographical location.
>> I am in Canada but get the US audi site. In Germany, one would encounter
>> the german site.
>>
>> It is a better example?
>
> Its an example of why the W3C TAG insist on
> referring to 'web resources' or 'information
> resources' rather than anything as concrete as a
> Web page. They want to be able to say, in cases
> like this, that there is a single "thing" at the
> end of that one URI, which is able to respond in
> a variety of languages, and its that "thing" that
> is denoted by the URI. There are a number of
> cases like this, sometimes resolved by Mime type,
> eg if your browser is set to read aloud rather
> than display visually, it might get sent
> different HTML than a conventional browser is
> sent. BUt it would be the same 'web resource',
> just webarch:represented differently.
>
> Pat
>
>>
>> D
>>
>>
>> On 1/20/08 4:33 PM, "John Black" <JohnBlack@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>>> Re: [ontolog-forum] CL, CG, IKL and the relationship betwThe
>>> following is an attempt to summarize (and reformat in plain text)
>>> a long discussion about the context-independence of URIs so that
>>> I can respond to Pat's last response.
>>>
>>> Originally I lamented that it was unfortunate that the W3C's
>>> architecture documents did not distinguish between the
>>> establishment of a URI and each instance of its use. My complaint
>>> was that this prevented using the context of the use of an
>>> instance of the URI when interpreting it.
>>>
>>> PH> The key point is, what would count as a 'context' for a
>>>> context-dependent URI?
>>>
>>> PH> Consider this scenario. You, sitting at your computer, use
>>>> a URi to browse an interesting website, and you send me an
>>>> email telling me about it and citing the URI. I then, sitting
>>>> at my
>>>> computer, two days later on the other side of the planet, type
>>>> that URI into my browser. We expect that we will see the same
>>>> website: but what do our two contexts have in common? It might
>>>> be almost nothing: the times, places, browsers, countries,
>>>> users,
>>>> OSs, maybe even cultural and linguistic settings, can be
>>>> completely
>>>> different. It is inherent to the Web that the contexts of
>>>> publication
>>>> and of use of a URI can be arbitrarily different and far apart
>>>> on
>>>> every dimension, yet the URI is supposed to retain its meaning.
>>>
>>> JB>> In the following example, the differing 'contexts' are the
>>> different
>>> web-pages upon which occurrences of a URI appear.
>>>
>>> JB>> Your scenario is not applicable here. We need the following
>>>>> scenario. You, sitting at your computer, use URI-A to browse
>>>>> to an interesting web-page upon which you see a small graphic,
>>>>> retrieved by an occurrence of URI-CD, which refers to an
>>>>> assertion that the web-page you are viewing is written in
>>>>> valid XHTML 1.0.
>>>
>>> JB>> This is URI-CD: http://www.w3.org/Icons/valid-xhtml10
>>>
>>> JB>> What this URI is intended to denote is this assertion (from
>>> the
>>>>> W3C help page: http://validator.w3.org/docs/help.html) "To
>>>>> show
>>>>> readers that one has taken some care to create an
>>>>> interoperable
>>>>> Web page, a "W3C valid" badge may be displayed (here, the
>>>>> "valid XHTML 1.0" badge) on any page that validates."
>>>
>>> PH> The URI denotes that badge/image/web-resource/thingie.
>>>> There is only one of it, and it, itself, is never used to make
>>>> any
>>>> assertions. The HTTP protocols supply us with a copy
>>>> (webarch:representation) of it, and we can then use that copy
>>>> to human:assert something about the page the copied image
>>>> is on. OK, lets agree on all that.
>>>
>>> PH> But notice that the [speech] 'acts' here ...<snip>... are
>>>> intrinsically dynamic things, events that occur in time and
>>>> within a social context (a 'web conversation', perhaps), not
>>>> textual or even indexical entities. It is the act of displaying
>>>> the "place order" button which constitutes the making of the
>>>> offer, not the button itself.
>>>
>>> PH> The name of the badge denotes the badge. USING a TOKEN of
>>>> that badge in a certain way MAKES an assertion. But the name of
>>>> the badge doesn't denote the assertion made with a copy of the
>>>> badge. It also doesn't denote the web page on which the copy
>>>> occurs, or the time of day when it was published, or a host of
>>>> other things closely associated with it.
>>>
>>> PH> You miss my point. I am conceding that one can use the image
>>>> to make an assertion. My point is that the image is not
>>>> identical
>>>> with the assertional act that uses it, nor with the content
>>>> that is
>>>> expressed by such an act.
>>>
>>> What then is the assertional act that makes this image into an
>>> assertion? Just this, I propose, a person takes the assertional
>>> act of embedding a token of that URI,
>>> "http://www.w3.org/Icons/valid-xhtml10";, into her HTML page and
>>> publishing the page to the web. And because the resulting
>>> assertion is indexical, the assertion thus made is different for
>>> each web-page that a TOKEN of that URI is embedded into. Are we
>>> still agreed?
>>>
>>> Now consider the word, "I", the first-person English pronoun.
>>> There is just one English word "I". Copies of it, tokens as you
>>> say, when embedded in speech or text, can be used by a speaker to
>>> denote that speaker who so embeds it. To denote (or name) that
>>> word we use a token of it, in quotes. And we say of the word
>>> named "I" that it denotes the speaker that embeds it in a
>>> sentence, that it is indexical, etc. Can't we similarly say of
>>> the URI named "http://www.w3.org/Icons/valid-xhtml10";, that it
>>> denotes the assertion which is made when a web-page author takes
>>> the assertional act of embedding a token of it in his web-page,
>>> that it is indexical, etc.? You keep insisting that the URI
>>> denotes the image, but to me that would be like saying the word,
>>> "I", denotes some 16-point, black-ink image of the letter "I" on
>>> a paper page. To me both the black-ink "I" image and the w3c
>>> badge image are just vehicles for delivering content.
>>>
>>> By the way, I would like to point out that some of the questions
>>> in this discussion may apply also to the ISO Common Logic (CL)
>>> specification. In the CL Requirements section 5.1.3, "Common
>>> Logic should be easy and natural for use on the Web" there is
>>> this statement, "b. URIs and URI references should be usable as
>>> names in the language". And in the "...syntax and semantics"
>>> section 6.3.1 "Importations and named phrases", where it states,
>>> "All texts which are published and identified on a network
>>> *shall* be mutually interpretable with all other texts on the
>>> network which can import them, over the same universe of
>>> reference and domain of discourse, and with their vocabularies
>>> merged."
>>>
>>> John Black
>>> www.kashori.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
>> --
>> **********************************************************************
>> "Speaking only for myself"
>> Senior Technical Evangelist - Adobe Systems, Inc.
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>
>
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--
**********************************************************************
"Speaking only for myself"
Senior Technical Evangelist - Adobe Systems, Inc.
Blog - http://technoracle.blogspot.com
Community Music - http://www.mix2r.com
My Band - http://www.myspace.com/22ndcentury
Adobe MAX 2008 - http://technoracle.blogspot.com/2007/08/adobe-max-2008.html
********************************************************************** (06)
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