Matthew: (01)
Once again, I find your logic undeniable. You are quite correct and it is
an example I have often used myself. (02)
Duane (03)
On 3/19/07 12:50 AM, "matthew.west@xxxxxxxxx" <matthew.west@xxxxxxxxx>
wrote: (04)
> Dear Duane,
>
>
>>
>> If the original statement was framed within a domain specific
>> ontology such
>> as an HR department at a company that hires only humans, the
>> statement as
>> written by John is fine IMO. I inferred nothing more that
>> all employees are
>> persons. Regardless of the definitions of employee and
>> person, the statement
>> is true.
>
> MW: I beg to differ. If you take a 4 dimensionalist view, then a
> person would be person-for-the-whole-of-his-life, an employee is
> just an aggregate of temporal parts of a person - the temporal
> parts that were working for a particular organization. Since by
> this definition an employee is not a person-for-the-whole-of-his-
> life, then employee is not a subtype of person.
>
>> What can be argued is that person and employee are
>> terms that have
>> limitations however as John noted, that can be fixed by defining such.
>>
>> I do not see why this is causing so much discussion.
>>
>> Duane
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 3/18/07 12:45 PM, "Chris Partridge"
>> <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>>> John,
>>>
>>> If you look at some of the standard textbooks on data
>> modelling you will
>>> find that:
>>>
>>> a) They recognise that some systems fudged the distinction
>> between employee
>>> and role (as you note)
>>> b) that it is not a good idea to do it, and
>>> c) offer their own way of modelling this.
>>>
>>> My experience with legacy systems re-engineering is that
>> not all (or even
>>> many modern) systems make this mistake. But am sure my sample is not
>>> representative.
>>>
>>> See (for example),
>>> Data Model Patterns: Conventions of Thought by David C. Hay
>>>
>> http://www.amazon.com/Data-Model-Patterns-Conventions-Thought/
>> dp/0932633293/
>>>
>> ref=pd_bbs_2/002-8927839-5907206?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1174246335&sr=8-2
>>>
>>> The Data Model Resource Book, Vol. 1: A Library of
>> Universal Data Models for
>>> All Enterprises by Len Silverston
>>>
>> http://www.amazon.com/Data-Model-Resource-Book-Vol/dp/04713802
>> 37/ref=sr_1_1/
>>> 002-8927839-5907206?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1174246404&sr=1-1
>>>
>>> (As an aside, I seem to recall Matthew West's 'High Quality
>> Data Models
>>> paper' notes this - or something similar as a common
>> modelling error -
>>> Matthew can confirm whether this is the case.)
>>>
>>> To return to an old topic: one can regard employee as a
>> role or a temporal
>>> stage of a person - depending upon your 3D/4D inclinations.
>> A description of
>>> the 4D approach is in my book.
>>>
>>>
>> http://www.amazon.com/Business-Objects-Re-Engineering-Computer
>> -Professional/
>>>
>> dp/075062082X/ref=sr_1_1/002-8927839-5907206?ie=UTF8&s=books&q
>> id=1174246688&
>>> sr=1-1
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Chris
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
>> Of John F. Sowa
>>> Sent: 18 March 2007 14:27
>>> To: [ontolog-forum]
>>> Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] Common Logic Controlled English (CLCE)
>>>
>>> Peter,
>>>
>>> That's the way most businesses handle their personnel:
>>>
>>>> Since when is an "employee" a sub-type of "person"?!
>>>
>>> However, one of the major mining companies used mules
>>> to pull ore out of the mines. (They didn't want to use
>>> anything that might create sparks that could trigger
>>> an explosion if there were any stray gasses around.)
>>>
>>> When they computerized their system, they assigned
>>> employee numbers to the mules. For that company, you
>>> could generalize the ontology in either of two ways:
>>>
>>> 1. Assume that Employee is a subtype of Animal.
>>>
>>> 2. Assume that Person could include nonhuman animals.
>>>
>>> But in any case, whenever you say X is a subtype of Y,
>>> you mean "every X is a Y." That is all it says.
>>>
>>> John
>>>
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>>
>> --
>> **********************************************************
>> Sr. Technical Evangelist - Adobe Systems, Inc. *
>> Chair - OASIS SOA Reference Model Technical Committee *
>> Blog: http://technoracle.blogspot.com *
>> Music: http://www.mix2r.com/audio/by/artist/duane_nickull*
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--
**********************************************************
Sr. Technical Evangelist - Adobe Systems, Inc. *
Chair - OASIS SOA Reference Model Technical Committee *
Blog: http://technoracle.blogspot.com *
Music: http://www.mix2r.com/audio/by/artist/duane_nickull*
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