Dear Adam, (01)
Well I'm hoping that he understands the business space and the
opportunties/problems that need to be addressed. He doesn't need
to know or like ontologies to do that. Being sceptical could
even be an advantage (well maybe). (02)
On the other hand we are the ones with a solution looking for
a problem, so it is for us (Doug in this case) to explain how we
contribute. (03)
I admit however that I do see a risk in this. (04)
Regards (05)
Matthew (06)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: uos-convene-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:uos-convene-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Adam Pease
> Sent: 11 March 2006 18:49
> To: Upper Ontology Summit convention
> Subject: RE: [uos-convene] UOS Agenda and Logistical Details
>
>
> Leo,
> Yes, I understand that's what many people
> agreed to. I'm still wondering however
> why. Clearly, Mills does not advocate upper
> ontologies, or formal ontologies, and I would
> think that would make it difficult to advocate the business
> value of the same.
>
> Adam
>
> At 10:45 AM 3/11/2006, Obrst, Leo J. wrote:
> >Adam,
> >
> >I think our discussion on the telecon yesterday settled on Mills to
> >introduce ontologies and the business value, and Doug Lenat to
> >introduce upper ontologies at the Wed pm session, with a joint
> >discussion about these talks to take place between Mills and Doug and
> >anyone else who is interested in the 5-6 pm slot on Tues.
> >
> >Thanks,
> >Leo
> >
> >
> >_____________________________________________
> >Dr. Leo Obrst The MITRE Corporation, Information Semantics
> >lobrst@xxxxxxxxx Center for Innovative Computing & Informatics
> >Voice: 703-983-6770 7515 Colshire Drive, M/S H305
> >Fax: 703-983-1379 McLean, VA 22102-7508, USA
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: uos-convene-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >[mailto:uos-convene-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Adam Pease
> >Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 1:32 PM
> >To: Upper Ontology Summit convention
> >Subject: RE: [uos-convene] UOS Agenda and Logistical Details
> >
> >Folks,
> > Apparently this is a dumb question, since I've
> >asked it before, but why do we want someone who
> >doesn't see the value of an upper ontology being
> >the person to "introduce" upper ontologies to the public at this
> >meeting?
> >
> >Adam
> >
> >At 10:27 AM 3/11/2006, Cassidy, Patrick J. wrote:
> >
> > >UOS-conveners:
> > >
> > ><?xml:namespace prefix = o ns =
> >"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
> > >
> > >I think that the comments of Mills Davis (below,
> > >sent to Brand Niemann) provide a good example of
> > >the work that the upper ontology community has
> > >to do in order to explain to the wider world -
> > >including most people in the IT field - why
> > >upper ontologies are important for achieving
> > >broad semantic interoperability among diverse applications.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > The need for formalized definitions in
> > > ontologies has been preached by Doug Lenat and
> > > others since before 1990. The basic ideas go
> > > back 50 years to the birth of "AI". One might
> > > have supposed that by now everyone in IT would
> > > understand why computers need precise
> > > definitions to do logical inferencing on
> > > knowledge. But this understanding is
> > > apparently still confined mostly to a small
> > > group who work with axiomatized
> > > ontologies. Most of us in this group
> > > understand the potential benefits of automated
> > > reasoning over large knowledge bases, but some
> > > who are (properly) concerned with what can be
> > > done immediately remain to be convinced, either
> > > of the ultimate potential, the time required to
> > > get there, or the economic or social
> > > feasibility of the goal. It appears to me that
> > > those who are convinced of the benefits of
> > > upper ontologies need more effort at outreach
> > > to a broader audience. The UOS was intended
> > > to help in that goal. The result may depend on
> > > how much we can achieve on Tuesday.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Mills has been familiar with applications of
> > >knowledge representations for years, and yet he still asks:
> > >
> > > "why have one upper-level ontology when you can have
> them all? "
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >The answer, of course, is that having more than
> > >one upper-level ontology makes accurate and
> > >automated semantic interoperability impossible
> > >(or in the more cautious words of the joint communiqué draft):
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >" . . . use of some formally defined common
> > >upper ontology by an organization or community
> > >is the most cost-effective method for achieving
> > >semantic interoperability that can scale from a
> > >few applications to diverse knowledge-based reasoning systems ".
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > . . . but Mills is apparently not
> > > convinced. And I think that he represents a
> > > very large fraction of the IT community in this respect.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >I think that we cannot assume that just because
> > >someone has been exposed to arguments about the
> > >importance of upper ontologies, s/he will have
> > >understood the point. Even worse, we cannot
> > >assume that someone who has access to, or been
> > >pointed to, discussions of the need for upper
> > >ontologies has even read such discussions, let
> > >alone understood them. The issues are
> > >apparently complex enough that they need to be
> > >phrased as simply and succinctly as possible,
> > >and be accompanied by pointers to examples
> > >illustrating how UOs can benefit users. The
> > >former might be helped by the Joint Communique,
> > >which can be redistributed wherever it may do
> > >some good. The examples are an issue we need to
> > >discuss on Tuesday and Wednesday morning.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Another point that has come up in the course of
> > >these discussions is that most of those who are
> > >building domain ontologies or other knowledge
> > >classifications need something simple to work
> > >with, if they are going to align such knowledge
> > >bases with a more general concept
> > >classification. This also impinges on the
> > >question of how much agreement can be achieved
> > >among the upper ontologists, and whether a
> > >"common subset" can be found. These issues
> > >were raised by comments of (among others) Barry
> > >Smith, David McComb, Mills Davis, John Sowa, and Roy Roebuck.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >But to serve the purposes of semantic
> > >interoperability, I think that most of us would
> > >agree that even a "simplified" upper ontology
> > >must have sufficient formalization to avoid the
> > >common ambiguities associated with linguistic
> > >terms. This recalls Einstein's dictum: "A
> > >theory should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler. "
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >My own appreciation of these concerns leads me
> > >to feel that it would be very helpful to have
> > >an axiomatized UO fragment that is simple
> > >enough to be rapidly and widely adopted so that
> > >it is highly visible, but axiomatized to
> > >sufficient precision to avoid the major
> > >ambiguities in interpreting the meanings of the
> > >terms, and can demonstrate to a wide audience
> > >the advantages of a common, formally defined
> > >higher-level ontology to enable information
> > >transfer among semantic modules. Perhaps a
> > >common subset will serve such a purpose.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >The note of Mills Davis is attached directly below.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >The current situation reminds me of the
> > >"muckraker" allegory from "Pilgrims Progress"
> > >and I have attached that reference below as well, with a short
> >comment.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Pat
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Patrick Cassidy
> > >MITRE Corporation
> > >260 Industrial Way
> > >Eatontown, NJ 07724
> > >Mail Stop: MNJE
> > >Phone: 732-578-6340
> > >Cell: 908-565-4053
> > >Fax: 732-578-6012
> > >Email: pcassidy@xxxxxxxxx
> > >
> > >
> > >=======================================================
> > >
> > >Note of Mills Davis to Brand Niemann
> > >
> > >===========================================================
> > >
> > >
> > >I talked with Steve, and yes, I'll do 20 minutes with Doug Lenat to
> > >set a business context for ontology. Why? Because, at a
> minimum, it
> > >is good that the various ULO custodians are agreeing to
> work together
> > >to cross link and explore samenesses and differences between their
> > >approaches. This is the essence of the public statement they will
> > >come up with at the end of the second day. I support their
> desire to
> > >work together because I believe that the semantic wave is a big one
> > >and that all contributions are welcome and encouraged.
> > >
> > >If you were to ask me where I think that this ULO
> activity will come
> > >out, then I have the following thoughts:
> > >
> > >(1) If the ULO quest is to arrive at one upper level
> ontology, then I
> > >think that the result will not be this. Rather, that there will
> > >emerge some few, a small set of primitives, that link to low level
> > >concepts or instances of interest via a direct binary relationship;
> > >then, between these layers of abstraction, any taxonomy or upper
> > >level ontology can be interposed, allowing us to choose
> which is the
> > >best for our purposes. Bottom line, why have one
> upper-level ontology
> > >when you can have them all? I suspect that the only reason to be
> > >looking for one upper level ontology would be if you believed that
> > >relational databases would be for ever and that every item of data
> > >must have one and only one tag.
> > >
> > >(2) Secondly, my interest is in the development of a "scientific
> > >method" for testing and evaluating the efficacy and validity of
> > >metaphysical patterns (ontology). In an era of knowledge computing,
> > >its is of critical importance to be able to validate and ground the
> > >ontology specifications in experimental data. Here, I
> think that the
> > >focus should shift from the nouns (concepts) to
> relationships and the
> > >theories that underly these relationships. Nouns require
> conventions
> > >and agreements. Relationships and the theories that
> underly them are
> > >much more limited and scientific.
> > >
> > >Bottom line: I applaud and encourage the efforts of this UO
> > >community. By coming together, I hope they deliver value.
> At the same
> > >time, I'm reserving judgement (or, remaining agnostic regarding the
> > >value, pending evidence), and am harboring a supposition
> that in the
> > >next year or so, technology may be emerging that will obviate UO
> > >arguments by subsuming all of these disparate approaches and
> > >subjecting them to tests of efficacy.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >====================================
> > >
> > >Pat Cassidy: fable for the day.
> > >
> > >===================================
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >There will always be a tension between those who
> > >are concerned with what is concrete and doable
> > >immediately, and those who are concerned about
> > >the things that can be done in the near future
> > >that represent a qualitative improvement over
> > >the immediate. The fable of the "muckraker"
> > >from "Pilgrim's Progress" puts that in an allegorical (though
> >religious) form:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From Paul Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress, stage 2
> > >
> > >------------------------
> > >
> > >This done, and after those things had been
> > >somewhat digested by Christiana and her company,
> > >the Interpreter takes them apart again, and has
> > >them first into a room where was a man that
> > >could look no way but downwards, with a
> > >muck-rake in his hand. There stood also one over
> > >his head with a celestial crown in his hand, and
> > >proffered him that crown for his muck-rake; but
> > >the man did neither look up nor regard, but
> > >raked to himself the straws, the small sticks, and dust of
> the floor.
> > >
> > >Then said Christiana, I persuade myself that I
> > >know somewhat the meaning of this; for this is a
> > >figure of a man of this world: is it not, good sir?
> > >
> > >INTER. Thou hast said right, said he; and his
> > >muck-rake doth show his carnal mind. And whereas
> > >thou seest him rather give heed to rake up
> > >straws and sticks, and the dust of the floor,
> > >than to do what He says that calls to him from
> > >above with the celestial crown in his hand; it
> > >is to show, that heaven is but as a fable to
> > >some, and that things here are counted the only
> > >things substantial. Now, whereas it was also
> > >showed thee that the man could look no way but
> > >downwards, it is to let thee know that earthly
> > >things, when they are with power upon men's
> > >minds, quite carry their hearts away from God.
> > >
> > >-----------------------------
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >[PC] Apparently, a common upper ontology that
> > >can enable semantic interoperability "is but as
> > >a fable to some". I hope that the UOS meeting
> > >can help to provide evidence that the benefits
> > >of upper ontologies are more "substantial" than
> > >many in the wider world currently believe.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -- Pat
> > >
> >
> >----------------------------
> >Adam Pease
> >http://www.ontologyportal.org - Free ontologies and tools
> >
> >
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> ----------------------------
> Adam Pease
> http://www.ontologyportal.org - Free ontologies and tools
>
>
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> (07)
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