That would certainly make sense.
Did we decide that the scope of this summit is limited to engineered
systems? That certainly reduces the number of issues to think about
when looking at ontologies of systems that are in scope.
It also of course excludes emergent systems such as the economy.
Mike
On 07/02/2012 18:41, David Price wrote:
Hi Mike,
Being a Systems Engineering body, INCOSE only deals with
engineered systems, not natural systems. Perhaps that means their
definition should be qualified to be for the term 'engineered
system', rather than 'system'? I realize over time the distinction
between natural and engineered system elements is going to become
blurred (e.g. humans with embedded circuits/chips), but for the
purpose of this summit the distinction may be useful.
Cheers,
David
On 2/7/2012 6:20 PM, Mike Bennett wrote:
Good one - so it has objective as well as components.
That raises some deep philosophical questions for emergent,
natural systems. Do these have a "Purpose"? If you believe in a
Creator as described in most Feudal-era belief systems, that
Creator created natural things with a purpose, but if you don't,
you don't. Clearly there are people both sides of that divide.
Where this has some practical impact is when you look at medical
pathology, which implicitly replaces a directed, goal-oriented
Creator with a similarly directed, goal-oriented Evolution. This
of course is not the evolution recognized by evolutionary
theorists, but it is clearly implied by the language of
pathology, in which there is only ever one "right" way to be,
many "wrong" ways which deviate from this. This leads to
absurdities like asking the logically inevitable question of
whether left-handedness is pathological. We all know it is not,
but the logic in which pathology is framed implies that it is.
So people have to work around the unchallenged but incorrect
world view whereby there was some intention in how the system of
a human body and mind were intended to be, by some intending
agent.
The only reason I bring this up is that in looking at an
ontology for a "system" which is an emergent, natural system one
therefore has to deal with, not what are the "Right" and "Wrong"
ontological views of these things, but what is the required
ontological commitment for a given ontology for a given emergent
system. You might have two or more ontologies of the same
natural system (such as the body) written according to different
world views and different ontological commitments. One of those
ontologies may comply with the definition of "System" which you
gave; another may not. A third may ensure that the ontological
commitment is framed in such as way as to not expose those
questions at all.
The interesting question is, how do you quantify those
commitments and world views, such that you can verify whether
the ontology of that natural system is fit for the purpose for
which it was intended. That is, how do you do quality assurance
on ontologies of natural systems, with reference to how they are
framed?
Mike
On 07/02/2012 17:54, David Price wrote:
INCOSE says the 'system' in 'systems engineering' means:
- an integrated set of elements, subsystems, or assemblies
that accomplish
a defined objective. These elements include products
(hardware, software,
firmware), processes, people, information, techniques,
facilities, services,
and other support elements. (INCOSE) An example would be an
air
transportation system.
System of system is then:
System‐of‐systems applies to a system‐of‐interest whose system
elements are themselves systems; typically these entail large
scale inter‐disciplinary problems with multiple,
heterogeneous,
distributed systems.
and system of interest is:
System‐of‐interest the system whose life cycle is under
consideration
ISO/IEC 15288:2008 Systems engineering – System life‐cycle
processes says:
- a combination of interacting elements organized to achieve
one or more
stated purposes
FWIW I happen to be in the middle of making a SKOS
instantiation of the INCOSE SE Handbook terms and definitions
for a NIST investigation.
Cheers,
David
On 2/7/2012 5:42 PM, Mike Bennett wrote:
Surely a system is something for which there are things
which have part-hood relationships to that thing. Having
parts would be what distinguishes a system (at this most
general level) from a bunch of stuff.
Just a suggestion.
Mike
On 07/02/2012 17:25, joseph simpson wrote:
The first step in this process is defining a
system.
If you can not define a system then you can not define a
complex system or a system of systems.
So, I still wonder if we have developed distinction
criteria for a system.
(A "system of systems" is by definition a system.)
Have fun,
Joe
On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 9:07 AM,
AzamatAbdoullaev <abdoul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
I still wonder if we
have developed the distinction criteria for the
complex systems and the systems of systems.
----- Original
Message -----
Sent:
Friday, February 03, 2012 9:56 PM
Subject:
Re:
[ontology-summit][BigSystemsandSystemsEngineering]Systemofsystems
Yuriy:
Because the name of this track is Big Systems
and Systems Engineering this topic fits under
the topic of mathematics (a very big system).
However, engineering in general is a bit
different and systems engineering is even more
different.
Engineering is the act of applying mathematics
and scientific principles to the solution of
practical problems.
So, math is a tool used by engineers to solve
problems.
Then there are systems science and metasystems
methodology that set the context for the
application of systems engineering.
There is little or no magic involved in these
well defined approaches and processes for
designing, developing, deploying and operating
large-scale systems.
However, as Arthur C. Clarke detailed in his
three laws, "Any sufficiently advanced
technology is indistinguishable from magic."
In my mind we are discussing a very advanced
technology that integrates large stores of
data, information and technology.
It is not magic.
Take care and have fun,
Joe
2012/2/3 Yuriy Milov
<qdone@xxxxxxxxxx>
Hi Joe,
If a () system
of () systems exists then a (very
(simple)) system is still a system
of (very (very (simple))) system.
It's
amaizing to know a very simple
system which demonstrates very
complex behavior. This is a fantastic
gift. We do not deserv it - but we
have it! :)
We could think
that the natural numbers
(1,2,3,4,5,6,7.. so on) is simple.
Are we sure?
Let's choose a
natural number n1 (free,
spontaneously, without any reasons -
just any of natural
numbers) and then let's choose again any
natural number n2 (free,
spontaneously, without any reasons -
just any of natural numbers).
The more freedom
of choice we have - the more chances
that n2>n1
Absolute freedom
of choice makes n2>n1 guaranteed
The reason of
this is that there is no a biggest
natural number (that is also an
amazing fact, by the way)
We (people) are
finite (in space and time) pretty
simple entities. How can we
understand infinity?
The answer is -
because ae are able to play with
a freedom of choice - thanks for the
great gift - the natural numbers :)
The
logistic equations and cellular
automata are magic wands whaich
transform complex system of
systems in a simple set 1,2,3 and
so on :)
Yuri
-----
Original Message -----
Sent:
Friday, February 03, 2012 3:29 AM
Subject:
Re: [ontology-summit]
[BigSystemsandSystemsEngineering]Systemofsystems
The logistic equation is a math
model of the behavior of a living
system.
A very simple system can demonstrate
very complex behavior.
In my view this is another example
of general systems theory (GST)
where a specific branch of science
was generalized into mathematics and
applied in many places.
However, this is behavior of a
simple system, not a system of
systems or an industrial system.
Have fun,
Joe
On Thu, Feb
2, 2012 at 1:49 PM, Yuriy Milov <qdone@xxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
Hi Jack,
I think the metod is to follow
the cascade of bifurcation which
has the
universal mesure (a sort of the
delta number which can be got
from
experiment/experience)
The magics here is our ability
to distinguish the related and
unrelated
events - where the bifurcated
branchs (splitted paths) belongs
one tree
(one way)
Sorry if it is too vague
methafora - I do some urgent job
right now
Yuri
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