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Re: [ontology-summit] [BigSystemsandSystemsEngineering]Systemofsystems

To: Ontology Summit 2012 discussion <ontology-summit@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
From: Jack Ring <jring7@xxxxxxxxx>
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 11:44:49 -0700
Message-id: <82EEB260-AAA7-4196-A248-20FDA577A1D2@xxxxxxxxx>
David, 
Your impression of INCOSE is incomplete. INCOSE specifically 'deals' with the human activity called system engineering which is about as natural a system as you can find --- weeds and all.
Jack
On Feb 7, 2012, at 11:41 AM, David Price wrote:

Hi Mike,

Being a Systems Engineering body, INCOSE only deals with engineered systems, not natural systems. Perhaps that means their definition should be qualified to be for the term 'engineered system', rather than 'system'? I realize over time the distinction between natural and engineered system elements is going to become blurred (e.g. humans with embedded circuits/chips), but for the purpose of this summit the distinction may be useful.

Cheers,
David

On 2/7/2012 6:20 PM, Mike Bennett wrote:
Good one - so it has objective as well as components.

That raises some deep philosophical questions for emergent, natural systems. Do these have a "Purpose"? If you believe in a Creator as described in most Feudal-era belief systems, that Creator created natural things with a purpose, but if you don't, you don't. Clearly there are people both sides of that divide.

Where this has some practical impact is when you look at medical pathology, which implicitly replaces a directed, goal-oriented Creator with a similarly directed, goal-oriented Evolution. This of course is not the evolution recognized by evolutionary theorists, but it is clearly implied by the language of pathology, in which there is only ever one "right" way to be, many "wrong" ways which deviate from this. This leads to absurdities like asking the logically inevitable question of whether left-handedness is pathological. We all know it is not, but the logic in which pathology is framed implies that it is. So people have to work around the unchallenged but incorrect world view whereby there was some intention in how the system of a human body and mind were intended to be, by some intending agent.

The only reason I bring this up is that in looking at an ontology for a "system" which is an emergent, natural system one therefore has to deal with, not what are the "Right" and "Wrong" ontological views of these things, but what is the required ontological commitment for a given ontology for a given emergent system. You might have two or more ontologies of the same natural system (such as the body) written according to different world views and different ontological commitments. One of those ontologies may comply with the definition of "System" which you gave; another may not. A third may ensure that the ontological commitment is framed in such as way as to not expose those questions at all.

The interesting question is, how do you quantify those commitments and world views, such that you can verify whether the ontology of that natural system is fit for the purpose for which it was intended. That is, how do you do quality assurance on ontologies of natural systems, with reference to how they are framed?

Mike


On 07/02/2012 17:54, David Price wrote:
INCOSE says  the 'system' in 'systems engineering' means:

- an integrated set of elements, subsystems, or assemblies that accomplish
a defined objective. These elements include products (hardware, software,
firmware), processes, people, information, techniques, facilities, services,
and other support elements. (INCOSE) An example would be an air
transportation system.

System of system is then:

System‐of‐systems applies to a system‐of‐interest whose system
elements are themselves systems; typically these entail large
scale inter‐disciplinary problems with multiple, heterogeneous,
distributed systems.

and system of interest is:

System‐of‐interest the system whose life cycle is under consideration

ISO/IEC 15288:2008 Systems engineering – System life‐cycle processes says:

- a combination of interacting elements organized to achieve one or more
stated purposes

FWIW I happen to be in the middle of making a SKOS instantiation of the INCOSE SE Handbook terms and definitions for a NIST investigation.

Cheers,
David

On 2/7/2012 5:42 PM, Mike Bennett wrote:
Surely a system is something for which there are things which have part-hood relationships to that thing. Having parts would be what distinguishes a system (at this most general level) from a bunch of stuff.

Just a suggestion.

Mike

On 07/02/2012 17:25, joseph simpson wrote:
The first step in this process is defining a system.

If you can not define a system then you can not define a complex system or a system of systems.

So, I still wonder if we have developed distinction criteria for a system.

(A "system of systems" is by definition a system.)

Have fun,

Joe

On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 9:07 AM, AzamatAbdoullaev <abdoul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
"We've learned that our companies, our cities and our world are complex systems-indeed, systems of systems": http://www.ibm.com/smarterplanet/us/en/overview/ideas/index.html?lnk=ussph2.12 
 
I still wonder if we have developed the distinction criteria for the complex systems and the systems of systems.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 9:56 PM
Subject: Re: [ontology-summit][BigSystemsandSystemsEngineering]Systemofsystems

Yuriy:

Because the name of this track is Big Systems and Systems Engineering this topic fits under the topic of mathematics (a very big system).

However, engineering in general is a bit different and systems engineering is even more different.

Engineering is the act of applying mathematics and scientific principles to the solution of practical problems.

So, math is a tool used by engineers to solve problems.

Then there are systems science and metasystems methodology that set the context for the application of systems engineering.

There is little or no magic involved in these well defined approaches and processes for designing, developing, deploying and operating large-scale systems.

However, as Arthur C. Clarke detailed in his three laws, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

In my mind we are discussing a very advanced technology that integrates large stores of data, information and technology.

It is not magic.

Take care and have fun,

Joe

2012/2/3 Yuriy Milov <qdone@xxxxxxxxxx>
Hi Joe,
 
If a () system of () systems exists then a (very (simple)) system is still a system of (very (very (simple))) system. 
 
It's amaizing to know a very simple system which demonstrates very complex behavior. This is a fantastic gift. We do not deserv it - but we have it! :)
 
We could think that the natural numbers (1,2,3,4,5,6,7.. so on) is simple. Are we sure?
 
Let's choose a natural number  n1 (free, spontaneously, without any reasons - just any of natural numbers) and  then let's choose again any natural number n2  (free, spontaneously, without any reasons - just any of natural numbers).
 
The more freedom of choice we have - the more chances that n2>n1
 
Absolute freedom of choice makes n2>n1 guaranteed
 
The reason of this is that there is no a biggest natural number (that is also an amazing fact, by the way)
 
We (people) are finite (in space and time) pretty simple entities. How can we understand infinity?
 
The answer is - because ae are able to play with a freedom of choice - thanks for the great gift - the natural numbers :) 
 
The  logistic equations and cellular automata are magic wands whaich transform complex system of systems in a simple set 1,2,3 and so on :)
 
Yuri
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 3:29 AM
Subject: Re: [ontology-summit] [BigSystemsandSystemsEngineering]Systemofsystems

The logistic equation is a math model of the behavior of a living system.

A very simple system can demonstrate very complex behavior.

In my view this is another example of general systems theory (GST) where a specific branch of science was generalized into mathematics and applied in many places.

However, this is behavior of a simple system, not a system of systems or an industrial system.

Have fun,

Joe

On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 1:49 PM, Yuriy Milov <qdone@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hi Jack,

I think the metod is to follow the cascade of bifurcation which has the
universal mesure (a sort of the delta number which can be got from
experiment/experience)

The magics here is our ability to distinguish the related and unrelated
events -  where the bifurcated branchs (splitted paths) belongs one tree
(one way)

Sorry if it is too vague methafora - I do some urgent job right now

Yuri

 


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