Dear Jack, (01)
I've been following this, trying to work out what the underlying point was.
Part of the problem was your using the word "emergence". The way I am used
to this being used is in the emergence of behaviour of the whole that cannot
be attributed simply to the sum of the parts, but results from how they are
assembled, and initially I thought that was what you were talking about.
I now think I was mistaken. It seems to me that you are talking about
emergence in the sense of when an object emerges from its environment. The
way I would put this from an ontological perspective is that it is about the
problem of when something comes into existence. This is a very general
problem in philosophical ontology/metaphysics. To make it relevant to
engineering you might have done better to ask the question, where on the
assembly line does a car become a car? When the first body panels are welded
together? When the engine is added? The Wheels? When the key is turned in
the ignition and the car driven off? With people, the same problem exists.
When does a person start to exist? Conception? A bundle of cells? When the
human form can be determined? A viable foetus? Birth?
This in turn is an element of the more general problem of vagueness, for
example, I can see reasonably clearly where the boundary of Mt Everest is
above the surface of the earth, but just where is the boundary below the
surface of the earth?
The bad news is that these are problems that have been discussed for
centuries, if not millennia, with a number of different positions taken, and
no obvious killer argument. This means that we will not be able to resolve
anything on this during this summit. If you are interested in this area, you
need to investigate the philosophical ontology literature. (02)
Regards (03)
Matthew West
Information Junction
Tel: +44 1489 880185
Mobile: +44 750 3385279
Skype: dr.matthew.west
matthew.west@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
http://www.informationjunction.co.uk/
http://www.matthew-west.org.uk/ (04)
This email originates from Information Junction Ltd. Registered in England
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ontology-summit-
> bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jack Ring
> Sent: 30 January 2012 23:24
> To: Ontology Summit 2012 discussion
> Subject: Re: [ontology-summit] Ontolgizing rain & snow [was: Track 1&2
> Joint Mission and Session Abstracts]
>
> Doug, Thank you for this. As is probably obvious by now or will be by
> the end of this message I am not a practicing ontologist.
> I am struck by several presumptions and gaps in the Cyc example.
> Perhaps I just can't read right or perhaps these are not proper
> ontology stuff. As I said in the last track, I am not sure I am looking
> for ontology as the means for systemist interoperability. Perhaps I
> seek some yet-to-be-conceived semiotic transformer. At any rate, humor
> me regarding the following:
> The example doesn't say where rain comes from. Mentions clouds but
> clouds are not rain or they wouldn't be "up there."
> I am looking for the notion of emergence. Rain happens after raindrops
> occur. Why do raindrops occur? And why snowflakes rather than
> raindrops? And why not mention fog as well? And Relative Humidity?
>
> OBTW, rain water is not fresh. Raindrops condense on particles, every
> raindrop has one therefor rainwater is laden with particles (especially
> ones resulting from cloud seeding).
> OBTW, Raindrops fall on me in Arizona while the sun is shining. No
> storm evident. Just an occlusion of a low and high pressure trough
> waaay up there.
> I am not trying to be smart alecky here. It is just that systems work
> challenges you to think beyond the active entities and consider the
> not's as well. Otherwise Unintended Consequences are born.
>
> I maliciously mentioned rain and snow because H2O has a triple point,
> vapor, liquid, solid depending on pressure, temperature, etc., Not all
> substances have such triple point. Methinks "SYSTEM" does which is the
> root of much confusion therefore a challenge for ontologists.
>
> Thanks for your attention.
> Jack
>
> On Jan 26, 2012, at 10:58 AM, doug foxvog wrote:
>
> > Matthew West wrote:
> >
> >> I understand your view. How shall you handle rain and snow?
> >
> > Rain & snow refer to physical precipitation particles, the
> precipitation in
> > bulk, the process that produces the precipitation, storms as events,
> and
> > storms as objects.
> >
> > Cyc's representation of these different, but related things (leaving
> out
> > comments and some additional statements) includes:
> >
> > (isa PrecipitationParticle ExistingObjectType)
> > (genls PrecipitationParticle Particle)
> > (genls PrecipitationParticle InanimateObject-Natural)
> >
> > (isa RainProcess ProcessType)
> > (genls RainProcess PrecipitationProcess)
> >
> > (isa SnowProcess ProcessType)
> > (genls SnowProcess PrecipitationProcess)
> >
> > (isa Rainwater ExistingStuffType)
> > (genls Rainwater (LiquidFn Water-Fresh))
> >
> > (isa SnowMob ExistingStuffType)
> > (genls SnowMob (SolidFn Water))
> >
> > (isa Snowflake ExistingObjectType)
> > (genls Snowflake PrecipitationParticle)
> > (genls (MobFn Snowflake) SnowMob)
> >
> > (isa Raindrop ExistingObjectType)
> > (genls Raindrop PrecipitationParticle)
> > (genls Raindrop Rainwater)
> >
> > (relationAllExists outputsGenerated PrecipitationProcess
> > (MobFn PrecipitationParticle))
> > (relationAllExists outputsGenerated RainProcess (MobFn Raindrop))
> > (relationAllExists outputsGenerated SnowProcess (MobFn Snowflake))
> >
> > (isa StormAsObject ExistingObjectType)
> > (genls StormAsObject InanimateObject-Natural)
> > (relationAllExists physicalParts StormAsObject CloudInSky)
> >
> > (isa RainStormAsObject ExistingObjectType)
> > (genls RainStormAsObject StormAsObject)
> > (relationAllExists physicalParts StormAsObject CloudInSky)
> > (relationAllExists physicalParts StormAsObject (MobFn Raindrop))
> >
> > (isa SnowStormAsObject ExistingObjectType)
> > (genls SnowStormAsObject StormAsObject)
> > (relationAllExists physicalParts StormAsObject CloudInSky)
> > (relationAllExists physicalParts SnowStormAsObject (MobFn Snowflake))
> >
> > (not (relationExistsAll doneBy PrecipitationProcess StormAsObject))
> > (comment
> > (not (relationExistsAll doneBy PrecipitationProcess StormAsObject))
> > "A StormAsObject would include Duststorms, which don't (necessarily)
> > include precipitation.")
> >
> > (relationExistsAll doneBy RainProcess RainStormAsObject)
> > (relationExistsAll doneBy SnowProcess SnowStormAsObject)
> >
> > (isa StormAsEvent ExistingObjectType)
> > (genls StormAsEvent ImmediateWeatherProcess)
> >
> > (isa RainStormAsEvent ExistingObjectType)
> > (genls RainStormAsEvent StormAsEvent)
> > (relationAllExists subprocesses RainStormAsEvent RainProcess)
> > (relationAllExists doneBy RainStormAsEvent RainStormAsObject)
> >
> > (isa SnowStormAsEvent ExistingObjectType)
> > (genls SnowStormAsEvent StormAsEvent)
> > (relationAllExists subprocesses SnowStormAsEvent SnowProcess)
> > (relationAllExists doneBy SnowStormAsEvent SnowStormAsObject)
> >
> > (isa SnowStormAsObject ExistingObjectType)
> > (genls SnowStormAsObject StormAsObject)
> > (relationAllExists physicalParts SnowStormAsObject (MobFn Snowflake))
> >
> >
> >> Jack
> >> On Jan 26, 2012, at 6:09 AM, Matthew West wrote:
> >>
> >>> The main problem here is one of different people using terms
> >>> differently. Hardly an ontological problem per se, but certainly a
> >>> problem that causes confusion in developing ontologies.
> >
> > This is always a problem for ontologists. The different meanings
> have
> > to be teased apart.
> >
> >>> Interestingly as a 4 dimensionalist I don't recognise endurants at
> all,
> >>> but I do recognise activities, physical objects, and participants.
> Under
> >>> this world view all individuals (including activities, physical
> objects
> >>> and participants) are spatiotemporal extents, and you discover that
> an
> >>> activity consists of its participants, where a participant is the
> state
> >>> of a physical object that participates in some activity. So I
> recognise
> >>> the things you talk about. However, I would assign the term
> "system" to
> >>> the physical object the participant is a state of.
> >
> > I would not restrict the term "system" merely to physical objects.
> But
> > having multiple clearly defined concepts which different people use
> that word
> > for in different contexts, is fine. They just need different URIs.
> >
> > -- doug
> >
> >>> Regards
> >>>
> >>> Matthew West
> >>> Information Junction
> >>> Tel: +44 1489 880185
> >>> Mobile: +44 750 3385279
> >>> Skype: dr.matthew.west
> >>> matthew.west@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> http://www.informationjunction.co.uk/
> >>> http://www.matthew-west.org.uk/
> >>>
> >>> This email originates from Information Junction Ltd. Registered in
> >>> England and Wales No. 6632177.
> >>> Registered office: 2 Brookside, Meadow Way, Letchworth Garden City,
> >>> Hertfordshire, SG6 3JE.
> >>> ...
> >
> >
> >
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