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Re: [ontology-summit] Ontolgizing rain & snow [was: Track 1&2 Joint Miss

To: Ontology Summit 2012 discussion <ontology-summit@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
From: Jack Ring <jring7@xxxxxxxxx>
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 17:01:15 -0700
Message-id: <DB7FEC5A-398B-41C6-81DC-97430B387880@xxxxxxxxx>
I think you will have a difficult time explaining why natural systems are not 
human-presumed systems. And closer to reality, yet, if human engineered systems 
contain N humans as active components then what?    (01)

On Jan 30, 2012, at 4:55 PM, Obrst, Leo J. wrote:    (02)

> Folks, this might be a discussion thread more appropriate for the more 
>general [ontolog-forum], since it doesn't really address human engineered 
>systems, but instead natural systems.
> 
> What do you think?
> 
> Thanks,
> Leo
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
>[mailto:ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jack Ring
> Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 6:24 PM
> To: Ontology Summit 2012 discussion
> Subject: Re: [ontology-summit] Ontolgizing rain & snow [was: Track 1&2 Joint 
>Mission and Session Abstracts]
> 
> Doug, Thank you for this. As is probably obvious by now or will be by the end 
>of this message I am not a practicing ontologist. 
> I am struck by several presumptions and gaps in the Cyc example. Perhaps I 
>just can't read right or perhaps these are not proper ontology stuff. As I 
>said in the last track, I am not sure I am looking for ontology as the means 
>for systemist interoperability. Perhaps I seek some yet-to-be-conceived 
>semiotic transformer. At any rate, humor me regarding the following:
> The example doesn't say where rain comes from. Mentions clouds but clouds are 
>not rain or they wouldn't be "up there." 
> I am looking for the notion of emergence. Rain happens after raindrops occur. 
>Why do raindrops occur? And why snowflakes rather than raindrops? And why not 
>mention fog as well? And Relative Humidity?
> 
> OBTW, rain water is not fresh. Raindrops condense on particles, every 
>raindrop has one therefor rainwater is laden with particles (especially ones 
>resulting from cloud seeding).
> OBTW, Raindrops fall on me in Arizona while the sun is shining. No storm 
>evident. Just an occlusion of a low and high pressure trough waaay up there.
> I am not trying to be smart alecky here. It is just that systems work 
>challenges you to think beyond the active entities and consider the not's as 
>well. Otherwise Unintended Consequences are born.
> 
> I maliciously mentioned rain and snow because H2O has a triple point, vapor, 
>liquid, solid depending on pressure, temperature, etc., Not all substances 
>have such triple point. Methinks "SYSTEM" does which is the root of much 
>confusion therefore a challenge for ontologists.
> 
> Thanks for your attention.
> Jack
> 
> On Jan 26, 2012, at 10:58 AM, doug foxvog wrote:
> 
>> Matthew West wrote:
>> 
>>> I understand your view. How shall you handle rain and snow?
>> 
>> Rain & snow refer to physical precipitation particles, the precipitation in
>> bulk, the process that produces the precipitation, storms as events, and
>> storms as objects.
>> 
>> Cyc's representation of these different, but related things (leaving out
>> comments and some additional statements) includes:
>> 
>> (isa PrecipitationParticle ExistingObjectType)
>> (genls PrecipitationParticle Particle)
>> (genls PrecipitationParticle InanimateObject-Natural)
>> 
>> (isa RainProcess ProcessType)
>> (genls RainProcess PrecipitationProcess)
>> 
>> (isa SnowProcess ProcessType)
>> (genls SnowProcess PrecipitationProcess)
>> 
>> (isa Rainwater ExistingStuffType)
>> (genls Rainwater (LiquidFn Water-Fresh))
>> 
>> (isa SnowMob ExistingStuffType)
>> (genls SnowMob (SolidFn Water))
>> 
>> (isa Snowflake ExistingObjectType)
>> (genls Snowflake PrecipitationParticle)
>> (genls (MobFn Snowflake) SnowMob)
>> 
>> (isa Raindrop ExistingObjectType)
>> (genls Raindrop PrecipitationParticle)
>> (genls Raindrop Rainwater)
>> 
>> (relationAllExists outputsGenerated PrecipitationProcess
>>                        (MobFn PrecipitationParticle))
>> (relationAllExists outputsGenerated RainProcess (MobFn Raindrop))
>> (relationAllExists outputsGenerated SnowProcess (MobFn Snowflake))
>> 
>> (isa StormAsObject ExistingObjectType)
>> (genls StormAsObject InanimateObject-Natural)
>> (relationAllExists physicalParts StormAsObject CloudInSky)
>> 
>> (isa RainStormAsObject ExistingObjectType)
>> (genls RainStormAsObject StormAsObject)
>> (relationAllExists physicalParts StormAsObject CloudInSky)
>> (relationAllExists physicalParts StormAsObject (MobFn Raindrop))
>> 
>> (isa SnowStormAsObject ExistingObjectType)
>> (genls SnowStormAsObject StormAsObject)
>> (relationAllExists physicalParts StormAsObject CloudInSky)
>> (relationAllExists physicalParts SnowStormAsObject (MobFn Snowflake))
>> 
>> (not (relationExistsAll doneBy PrecipitationProcess StormAsObject))
>> (comment
>> (not (relationExistsAll doneBy PrecipitationProcess StormAsObject))
>> "A StormAsObject would include Duststorms, which don't (necessarily)
>> include precipitation.")
>> 
>> (relationExistsAll doneBy RainProcess RainStormAsObject)
>> (relationExistsAll doneBy SnowProcess SnowStormAsObject)
>> 
>> (isa StormAsEvent ExistingObjectType)
>> (genls StormAsEvent ImmediateWeatherProcess)
>> 
>> (isa RainStormAsEvent ExistingObjectType)
>> (genls RainStormAsEvent StormAsEvent)
>> (relationAllExists subprocesses RainStormAsEvent RainProcess)
>> (relationAllExists doneBy RainStormAsEvent RainStormAsObject)
>> 
>> (isa SnowStormAsEvent ExistingObjectType)
>> (genls SnowStormAsEvent StormAsEvent)
>> (relationAllExists subprocesses SnowStormAsEvent SnowProcess)
>> (relationAllExists doneBy SnowStormAsEvent SnowStormAsObject)
>> 
>> (isa SnowStormAsObject ExistingObjectType)
>> (genls SnowStormAsObject StormAsObject)
>> (relationAllExists physicalParts SnowStormAsObject (MobFn Snowflake))
>> 
>> 
>>> Jack
>>> On Jan 26, 2012, at 6:09 AM, Matthew West wrote:
>>> 
>>>> The main problem here is one of different people using terms
>>>> differently. Hardly an ontological problem per se, but certainly a
>>>> problem that causes confusion in developing ontologies.
>> 
>> This is always a problem for ontologists.  The different meanings have
>> to be teased apart.
>> 
>>>> Interestingly as a 4 dimensionalist I don't recognise endurants at all,
>>>> but I do recognise activities, physical objects, and participants. Under
>>>> this world view all individuals (including activities, physical objects
>>>> and participants) are spatiotemporal extents, and you discover that an
>>>> activity consists of its participants, where a participant is the state
>>>> of a physical object that participates in some activity. So I recognise
>>>> the things you talk about. However, I would assign the term "system" to
>>>> the physical object the participant is a state of.
>> 
>> I would not restrict the term "system" merely to physical objects.  But
>> having multiple clearly defined concepts which different people use that word
>> for in different contexts, is fine.  They just need different URIs.
>> 
>> -- doug
>> 
>>>> Regards
>>>> 
>>>> Matthew West
>>>> Information  Junction
>>>> Tel: +44 1489 880185
>>>> Mobile: +44 750 3385279
>>>> Skype: dr.matthew.west
>>>> matthew.west@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> http://www.informationjunction.co.uk/
>>>> http://www.matthew-west.org.uk/
>>>> 
>>>> This email originates from Information Junction Ltd. Registered in
>>>> England and Wales No. 6632177.
>>>> Registered office: 2 Brookside, Meadow Way, Letchworth Garden City,
>>>> Hertfordshire, SG6 3JE.
>>>> ...
>> 
>> 
>> 
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