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Re: [ontology-summit] Ontolgizing rain & snow [was: Track 1&2 Joint Miss

To: Ontology Summit 2012 discussion <ontology-summit@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
From: "Obrst, Leo J." <lobrst@xxxxxxxxx>
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 01:18:52 +0000
Message-id: <FDFBC56B2482EE48850DB651ADF7FEB01826720A@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Jack, it's not that this is not interesting, and I get the metaphor, but 
everyone needs to make the metaphor explicit. Otherwise, it seems we are 
veering all over the place and not focusing on our themes for THIS Summit. The 
next summit or a future summit can address human-nature co-systems, and even 
this summit can, where it is appropriate to our focus.    (01)

Make it explicit what the contribution is, focus. We simply don't have the 
open-endedness of the whole Ontolog Forum, where nearly anything and everything 
goes.    (02)

Thanks,
Leo    (03)

-----Original Message-----
From: ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jack Ring
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 7:29 PM
To: Ontology Summit 2012 discussion
Subject: Re: [ontology-summit] Ontolgizing rain & snow [was: Track 1&2 Joint 
Mission and Session Abstracts]    (04)

Leo,
Apologies for the ambiguities. The subject is not rain and snow. Those are the 
metaphors. The subject is emergence and the special confusions of triple-point 
systems.    (05)

OBTW, perhaps ecologies are systems only in the minds of humans. if you don't 
want to take up natural vs. human-imputed systems this year so be it. However 
it is already a big confusion in the societal demand for systems. For example 
sponsors do not know that more than 90% or Mother Nature's experiments fail.    (06)

On Jan 30, 2012, at 5:20 PM, Obrst, Leo J. wrote:    (07)

> Sure, human engineered systems also contain humans. That's what systems 
>engineering is all about. And teleological arguments do show correspondences 
>to human-engineered systems (function of the heart in the human body). But 
>remember we are addressing human-engineered systems. Ecologies are systems and 
>are wider than human-engineered systems, but obviously also affect the latter. 
> Perhaps ecologies, especially human-influenced ecologies are super-systems, 
>and we should address these here, but I think we are veering off.
> 
> I suggest just like we are not addressing natural ecologies, at least not in 
>this summit. Or at the least: not in this thread yet. We are ontologizing rain 
>and snow. 
> 
> Thanks,
> Leo
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
>[mailto:ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jack Ring
> Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 7:01 PM
> To: Ontology Summit 2012 discussion
> Subject: Re: [ontology-summit] Ontolgizing rain & snow [was: Track 1&2 Joint 
>Mission and Session Abstracts]
> 
> I think you will have a difficult time explaining why natural systems are not 
>human-presumed systems. And closer to reality, yet, if human engineered 
>systems contain N humans as active components then what?
> 
> On Jan 30, 2012, at 4:55 PM, Obrst, Leo J. wrote:
> 
>> Folks, this might be a discussion thread more appropriate for the more 
>general [ontolog-forum], since it doesn't really address human engineered 
>systems, but instead natural systems.
>> 
>> What do you think?
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Leo
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
>[mailto:ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jack Ring
>> Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 6:24 PM
>> To: Ontology Summit 2012 discussion
>> Subject: Re: [ontology-summit] Ontolgizing rain & snow [was: Track 1&2 Joint 
>Mission and Session Abstracts]
>> 
>> Doug, Thank you for this. As is probably obvious by now or will be by the 
>end of this message I am not a practicing ontologist. 
>> I am struck by several presumptions and gaps in the Cyc example. Perhaps I 
>just can't read right or perhaps these are not proper ontology stuff. As I 
>said in the last track, I am not sure I am looking for ontology as the means 
>for systemist interoperability. Perhaps I seek some yet-to-be-conceived 
>semiotic transformer. At any rate, humor me regarding the following:
>> The example doesn't say where rain comes from. Mentions clouds but clouds 
>are not rain or they wouldn't be "up there." 
>> I am looking for the notion of emergence. Rain happens after raindrops 
>occur. Why do raindrops occur? And why snowflakes rather than raindrops? And 
>why not mention fog as well? And Relative Humidity?
>> 
>> OBTW, rain water is not fresh. Raindrops condense on particles, every 
>raindrop has one therefor rainwater is laden with particles (especially ones 
>resulting from cloud seeding).
>> OBTW, Raindrops fall on me in Arizona while the sun is shining. No storm 
>evident. Just an occlusion of a low and high pressure trough waaay up there.
>> I am not trying to be smart alecky here. It is just that systems work 
>challenges you to think beyond the active entities and consider the not's as 
>well. Otherwise Unintended Consequences are born.
>> 
>> I maliciously mentioned rain and snow because H2O has a triple point, vapor, 
>liquid, solid depending on pressure, temperature, etc., Not all substances 
>have such triple point. Methinks "SYSTEM" does which is the root of much 
>confusion therefore a challenge for ontologists.
>> 
>> Thanks for your attention.
>> Jack
>> 
>> On Jan 26, 2012, at 10:58 AM, doug foxvog wrote:
>> 
>>> Matthew West wrote:
>>> 
>>>> I understand your view. How shall you handle rain and snow?
>>> 
>>> Rain & snow refer to physical precipitation particles, the precipitation in
>>> bulk, the process that produces the precipitation, storms as events, and
>>> storms as objects.
>>> 
>>> Cyc's representation of these different, but related things (leaving out
>>> comments and some additional statements) includes:
>>> 
>>> (isa PrecipitationParticle ExistingObjectType)
>>> (genls PrecipitationParticle Particle)
>>> (genls PrecipitationParticle InanimateObject-Natural)
>>> 
>>> (isa RainProcess ProcessType)
>>> (genls RainProcess PrecipitationProcess)
>>> 
>>> (isa SnowProcess ProcessType)
>>> (genls SnowProcess PrecipitationProcess)
>>> 
>>> (isa Rainwater ExistingStuffType)
>>> (genls Rainwater (LiquidFn Water-Fresh))
>>> 
>>> (isa SnowMob ExistingStuffType)
>>> (genls SnowMob (SolidFn Water))
>>> 
>>> (isa Snowflake ExistingObjectType)
>>> (genls Snowflake PrecipitationParticle)
>>> (genls (MobFn Snowflake) SnowMob)
>>> 
>>> (isa Raindrop ExistingObjectType)
>>> (genls Raindrop PrecipitationParticle)
>>> (genls Raindrop Rainwater)
>>> 
>>> (relationAllExists outputsGenerated PrecipitationProcess
>>>                       (MobFn PrecipitationParticle))
>>> (relationAllExists outputsGenerated RainProcess (MobFn Raindrop))
>>> (relationAllExists outputsGenerated SnowProcess (MobFn Snowflake))
>>> 
>>> (isa StormAsObject ExistingObjectType)
>>> (genls StormAsObject InanimateObject-Natural)
>>> (relationAllExists physicalParts StormAsObject CloudInSky)
>>> 
>>> (isa RainStormAsObject ExistingObjectType)
>>> (genls RainStormAsObject StormAsObject)
>>> (relationAllExists physicalParts StormAsObject CloudInSky)
>>> (relationAllExists physicalParts StormAsObject (MobFn Raindrop))
>>> 
>>> (isa SnowStormAsObject ExistingObjectType)
>>> (genls SnowStormAsObject StormAsObject)
>>> (relationAllExists physicalParts StormAsObject CloudInSky)
>>> (relationAllExists physicalParts SnowStormAsObject (MobFn Snowflake))
>>> 
>>> (not (relationExistsAll doneBy PrecipitationProcess StormAsObject))
>>> (comment
>>> (not (relationExistsAll doneBy PrecipitationProcess StormAsObject))
>>> "A StormAsObject would include Duststorms, which don't (necessarily)
>>> include precipitation.")
>>> 
>>> (relationExistsAll doneBy RainProcess RainStormAsObject)
>>> (relationExistsAll doneBy SnowProcess SnowStormAsObject)
>>> 
>>> (isa StormAsEvent ExistingObjectType)
>>> (genls StormAsEvent ImmediateWeatherProcess)
>>> 
>>> (isa RainStormAsEvent ExistingObjectType)
>>> (genls RainStormAsEvent StormAsEvent)
>>> (relationAllExists subprocesses RainStormAsEvent RainProcess)
>>> (relationAllExists doneBy RainStormAsEvent RainStormAsObject)
>>> 
>>> (isa SnowStormAsEvent ExistingObjectType)
>>> (genls SnowStormAsEvent StormAsEvent)
>>> (relationAllExists subprocesses SnowStormAsEvent SnowProcess)
>>> (relationAllExists doneBy SnowStormAsEvent SnowStormAsObject)
>>> 
>>> (isa SnowStormAsObject ExistingObjectType)
>>> (genls SnowStormAsObject StormAsObject)
>>> (relationAllExists physicalParts SnowStormAsObject (MobFn Snowflake))
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> Jack
>>>> On Jan 26, 2012, at 6:09 AM, Matthew West wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> The main problem here is one of different people using terms
>>>>> differently. Hardly an ontological problem per se, but certainly a
>>>>> problem that causes confusion in developing ontologies.
>>> 
>>> This is always a problem for ontologists.  The different meanings have
>>> to be teased apart.
>>> 
>>>>> Interestingly as a 4 dimensionalist I don't recognise endurants at all,
>>>>> but I do recognise activities, physical objects, and participants. Under
>>>>> this world view all individuals (including activities, physical objects
>>>>> and participants) are spatiotemporal extents, and you discover that an
>>>>> activity consists of its participants, where a participant is the state
>>>>> of a physical object that participates in some activity. So I recognise
>>>>> the things you talk about. However, I would assign the term "system" to
>>>>> the physical object the participant is a state of.
>>> 
>>> I would not restrict the term "system" merely to physical objects.  But
>>> having multiple clearly defined concepts which different people use that 
>word
>>> for in different contexts, is fine.  They just need different URIs.
>>> 
>>> -- doug
>>> 
>>>>> Regards
>>>>> 
>>>>> Matthew West
>>>>> Information  Junction
>>>>> Tel: +44 1489 880185
>>>>> Mobile: +44 750 3385279
>>>>> Skype: dr.matthew.west
>>>>> matthew.west@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> http://www.informationjunction.co.uk/
>>>>> http://www.matthew-west.org.uk/
>>>>> 
>>>>> This email originates from Information Junction Ltd. Registered in
>>>>> England and Wales No. 6632177.
>>>>> Registered office: 2 Brookside, Meadow Way, Letchworth Garden City,
>>>>> Hertfordshire, SG6 3JE.
>>>>> ...
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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