Folks, this might be a discussion thread more appropriate for the more general
[ontolog-forum], since it doesn't really address human engineered systems, but
instead natural systems. (01)
What do you think? (02)
Thanks,
Leo (03)
-----Original Message-----
From: ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jack Ring
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 6:24 PM
To: Ontology Summit 2012 discussion
Subject: Re: [ontology-summit] Ontolgizing rain & snow [was: Track 1&2 Joint
Mission and Session Abstracts] (04)
Doug, Thank you for this. As is probably obvious by now or will be by the end
of this message I am not a practicing ontologist.
I am struck by several presumptions and gaps in the Cyc example. Perhaps I just
can't read right or perhaps these are not proper ontology stuff. As I said in
the last track, I am not sure I am looking for ontology as the means for
systemist interoperability. Perhaps I seek some yet-to-be-conceived semiotic
transformer. At any rate, humor me regarding the following:
The example doesn't say where rain comes from. Mentions clouds but clouds are
not rain or they wouldn't be "up there."
I am looking for the notion of emergence. Rain happens after raindrops occur.
Why do raindrops occur? And why snowflakes rather than raindrops? And why not
mention fog as well? And Relative Humidity? (05)
OBTW, rain water is not fresh. Raindrops condense on particles, every raindrop
has one therefor rainwater is laden with particles (especially ones resulting
from cloud seeding).
OBTW, Raindrops fall on me in Arizona while the sun is shining. No storm
evident. Just an occlusion of a low and high pressure trough waaay up there.
I am not trying to be smart alecky here. It is just that systems work
challenges you to think beyond the active entities and consider the not's as
well. Otherwise Unintended Consequences are born. (06)
I maliciously mentioned rain and snow because H2O has a triple point, vapor,
liquid, solid depending on pressure, temperature, etc., Not all substances have
such triple point. Methinks "SYSTEM" does which is the root of much confusion
therefore a challenge for ontologists. (07)
Thanks for your attention.
Jack (08)
On Jan 26, 2012, at 10:58 AM, doug foxvog wrote: (09)
> Matthew West wrote:
>
>> I understand your view. How shall you handle rain and snow?
>
> Rain & snow refer to physical precipitation particles, the precipitation in
> bulk, the process that produces the precipitation, storms as events, and
> storms as objects.
>
> Cyc's representation of these different, but related things (leaving out
> comments and some additional statements) includes:
>
> (isa PrecipitationParticle ExistingObjectType)
> (genls PrecipitationParticle Particle)
> (genls PrecipitationParticle InanimateObject-Natural)
>
> (isa RainProcess ProcessType)
> (genls RainProcess PrecipitationProcess)
>
> (isa SnowProcess ProcessType)
> (genls SnowProcess PrecipitationProcess)
>
> (isa Rainwater ExistingStuffType)
> (genls Rainwater (LiquidFn Water-Fresh))
>
> (isa SnowMob ExistingStuffType)
> (genls SnowMob (SolidFn Water))
>
> (isa Snowflake ExistingObjectType)
> (genls Snowflake PrecipitationParticle)
> (genls (MobFn Snowflake) SnowMob)
>
> (isa Raindrop ExistingObjectType)
> (genls Raindrop PrecipitationParticle)
> (genls Raindrop Rainwater)
>
> (relationAllExists outputsGenerated PrecipitationProcess
> (MobFn PrecipitationParticle))
> (relationAllExists outputsGenerated RainProcess (MobFn Raindrop))
> (relationAllExists outputsGenerated SnowProcess (MobFn Snowflake))
>
> (isa StormAsObject ExistingObjectType)
> (genls StormAsObject InanimateObject-Natural)
> (relationAllExists physicalParts StormAsObject CloudInSky)
>
> (isa RainStormAsObject ExistingObjectType)
> (genls RainStormAsObject StormAsObject)
> (relationAllExists physicalParts StormAsObject CloudInSky)
> (relationAllExists physicalParts StormAsObject (MobFn Raindrop))
>
> (isa SnowStormAsObject ExistingObjectType)
> (genls SnowStormAsObject StormAsObject)
> (relationAllExists physicalParts StormAsObject CloudInSky)
> (relationAllExists physicalParts SnowStormAsObject (MobFn Snowflake))
>
> (not (relationExistsAll doneBy PrecipitationProcess StormAsObject))
> (comment
> (not (relationExistsAll doneBy PrecipitationProcess StormAsObject))
> "A StormAsObject would include Duststorms, which don't (necessarily)
> include precipitation.")
>
> (relationExistsAll doneBy RainProcess RainStormAsObject)
> (relationExistsAll doneBy SnowProcess SnowStormAsObject)
>
> (isa StormAsEvent ExistingObjectType)
> (genls StormAsEvent ImmediateWeatherProcess)
>
> (isa RainStormAsEvent ExistingObjectType)
> (genls RainStormAsEvent StormAsEvent)
> (relationAllExists subprocesses RainStormAsEvent RainProcess)
> (relationAllExists doneBy RainStormAsEvent RainStormAsObject)
>
> (isa SnowStormAsEvent ExistingObjectType)
> (genls SnowStormAsEvent StormAsEvent)
> (relationAllExists subprocesses SnowStormAsEvent SnowProcess)
> (relationAllExists doneBy SnowStormAsEvent SnowStormAsObject)
>
> (isa SnowStormAsObject ExistingObjectType)
> (genls SnowStormAsObject StormAsObject)
> (relationAllExists physicalParts SnowStormAsObject (MobFn Snowflake))
>
>
>> Jack
>> On Jan 26, 2012, at 6:09 AM, Matthew West wrote:
>>
>>> The main problem here is one of different people using terms
>>> differently. Hardly an ontological problem per se, but certainly a
>>> problem that causes confusion in developing ontologies.
>
> This is always a problem for ontologists. The different meanings have
> to be teased apart.
>
>>> Interestingly as a 4 dimensionalist I don't recognise endurants at all,
>>> but I do recognise activities, physical objects, and participants. Under
>>> this world view all individuals (including activities, physical objects
>>> and participants) are spatiotemporal extents, and you discover that an
>>> activity consists of its participants, where a participant is the state
>>> of a physical object that participates in some activity. So I recognise
>>> the things you talk about. However, I would assign the term "system" to
>>> the physical object the participant is a state of.
>
> I would not restrict the term "system" merely to physical objects. But
> having multiple clearly defined concepts which different people use that word
> for in different contexts, is fine. They just need different URIs.
>
> -- doug
>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> Matthew West
>>> Information Junction
>>> Tel: +44 1489 880185
>>> Mobile: +44 750 3385279
>>> Skype: dr.matthew.west
>>> matthew.west@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> http://www.informationjunction.co.uk/
>>> http://www.matthew-west.org.uk/
>>>
>>> This email originates from Information Junction Ltd. Registered in
>>> England and Wales No. 6632177.
>>> Registered office: 2 Brookside, Meadow Way, Letchworth Garden City,
>>> Hertfordshire, SG6 3JE.
>>> ...
>
>
>
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