Dear Ken,
It depends what you mean by engineered. Some have chosen a narrow
definition, even though I have explained that the intent is broad (and I
clam Alice in Wonderland rights) and would include social engineering as
well as electromechanical engineering within it. (01)
Regards (02)
Matthew West
Information Junction
Tel: +44 1489 880185
Mobile: +44 750 3385279
Skype: dr.matthew.west
matthew.west@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
http://www.informationjunction.co.uk/
http://www.matthew-west.org.uk/ (03)
This email originates from Information Junction Ltd. Registered in England
and Wales No. 6632177.
Registered office: 2 Brookside, Meadow Way, Letchworth Garden City,
Hertfordshire, SG6 3JE. (04)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ontology-summit-
> bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Laskey
> Sent: 19 January 2012 17:41
> To: 'Ontology Summit 2011 discussion'
> Subject: Re: [ontology-summit] Large-scale engineered systems vs.
large-scale
> sociotechnical systems
>
> I am unfortunately in the midst of a review and will miss today's call but
I
> wanted to mention the concept of a SOA (Service Oriented Architecture)
> ecosystem being introduced in the OASIS SOA Reference Architecture
Foundation.
> The last public draft can be found at
http://docs.oasis-open.org/soa-rm/soa-
> ra/v1.0/csprd02/soa-ra-v1.0-csprd02.pd
> f and we are currently adjudicating review comments. Those working on
this
> specification found that merely looking at the engineered aspects was
> insufficient because interactions are necessary across organizational
> boundaries and issues such as trust and establishing willingness to
interact
> are paramount. Clear semantics in a distributed environment are obviously
a
> first order concern.
>
> Ken
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Dr. Kenneth Laskey
> MITRE Corporation, M/S H305 phone: 703-983-7934
> 7515 Colshire Drive fax:
> 703-983-1379
> McLean VA 22102-7508
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Nicola
Guarino
> Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 12:23 PM
> To: Ontology Summit 2011 discussion
> Subject: [ontology-summit] Large-scale engineered systems vs. large-scale
> sociotechnical systems
>
> Folks,
>
> the term "engineered systems" coming from the initial discussions
was
> indeed intended to convey an explicit focus on systems designed for a
purpose,
> resulting from an an engineering process, as Matthew clarifies below. This
> track was born in parallel with track 1, which is its natural complement,
> focusing on the engineering process.
>
> Of course, there are other kinds of big, complex systems which (as a
> whole) are not engineered, while they may contain or not some (relevant)
parts
> which are engineered. An ecological system, at least at a first
approximation,
> seems to be a purely natural system, while an urban system is clearly a
system
> which contains engineered parts, although as a whole is not an engineered
> system.
>
> In the big complex systems that we are facing nowadays, I think that
the
> engineered dimension is too relevant to be not explicitly acknowledged,
> although we have also to look beyond the engineered system itself, to
include
> in particular the social and the environmental context. That's why,
instead of
> dropping "engineered" from the title, I suggest to modify the modify it a
> little bit:
>
> "Large-scale socio-technical systems"
>
> Under this notion we can include both the engineered (technical) systems
> properly, and the larger social context they are embeeded in. Purely
natural
> systems remain out of focus, but I think this is good in order to avoid
> broadening too much our analysis.
>
>
>
> Just a suggestion, I leave the track chairs to continue the discussion.
>
> Talking to you in few minutes,
>
> Nicola
>
>
>
>
> On 19 Jan 2012, at 16:48, Matthew West wrote:
>
> > Dear John,
> >
> >> I realize that a large number of messages have gone back and forth
> >> about the word 'engineered'. But would anybody who reads the
> >> announcement of the ontology summit need to know any of that?
> >>
> >>> Track 2 will focus on the ontology of large-scale engineered systems.
> >>
> >> Wouldn't it be simpler just to drop the word 'engineered'?
> >
> > Not really my choice of words. The titles were settled before I
> > offered to be a champion. However, there is a distinction between
> > systems in general and engineered systems. Engineered systems are
> > those that are the result
> of
> > some systems engineering process, whereas there are certainly systems
> > that arise naturally, and were not engineered for a purpose - at least
> > not by humans.
> >
> > If there was a strong interest expressed in systems that are wider
> > than engineered systems, I would be happy to broaden the track to
> > accommodate them. On the other hand, engineered systems are generally
> > within my competence, whereas a broader view of systems would not be,
> > and I'd rather not be drawing conclusions about systems in general
> > when they really only applied to engineered systems.
> >
> > So I suggest we await an interest and expertise in non-engineered
> > systems before making changes.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Matthew West
> > Information Junction
> > Tel: +44 1489 880185
> > Mobile: +44 750 3385279
> > Skype: dr.matthew.west
> > matthew.west@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > http://www.informationjunction.co.uk/
> > http://www.matthew-west.org.uk/
> >
> > This email originates from Information Junction Ltd. Registered in
> > England and Wales No. 6632177.
> > Registered office: 2 Brookside, Meadow Way, Letchworth Garden City,
> > Hertfordshire, SG6 3JE.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: ontology-summit-org-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:ontology-summit-
> >> org-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of John F. Sowa
> >> Sent: 19 January 2012 13:42
> >> To: ontology-summit-org@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> Subject: Re: [ontology-summit-org] Track Content pages
> >>
> >> Dear Matthew,
> >>
> >> I realize that a large number of messages have gone back and forth
> >> about the word 'engineered'. But would anybody who reads the
> >> announcement of the ontology summit need to know any of that?
> >>
> >>> Track 2 will focus on the ontology of large-scale engineered systems.
> >>
> >> Wouldn't it be simpler just to drop the word 'engineered'?
> >>
> >> Is anything gained by that word, other than a puzzled look on
> >> somebody's face who wonders what meaning, if any, that word might
> >> contribute?
> >>
> >> John
> >>
> >>
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