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Re: [ontolog-forum] Requesting Opinions on the Benefits of Predicates as

To: "[ontolog-forum] " <ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
From: Cory Casanave <cory-c@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2014 21:19:19 +0000
Message-id: <c5a76697413d43e09d8ab4fe127e6e11@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Ed,
Very true - but that assumes you KNOW you will want to make a statement about 
that triple (or set of triples) in the graph. It doesn't work in the general 
case. Also, a zillion named graphs would blow up the infrastructures.
-Cory
    (01)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ontolog-forum-

> bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Barkmeyer, Edward J

> Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2014 5:04 PM

> To: [ontolog-forum]

> Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] Requesting Opinions on the Benefits of

> Predicates as Nodes

> 

> Jack,

> 

> We also manage assertions.  This is one of the reasons why the RDF folk

> invented RDF Named Graphs -- a bucket of triples with an identifier.

> 

> -Ed

> 

> > -----Original Message-----

> > From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ontolog-forum-

> > bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jack Park

> > Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2014 2:23 PM

> > To: [ontolog-forum]

> > Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] Requesting Opinions on the Benefits of

> > Predicates as Nodes

> >

> > I'd like to mention one other 'modeling' situation:

> >

> > Consider this sentence:

> >

> > A majority of scientists believe that X causes Y.

> >

> > In that, we can see two triples, one of which is nested as object in the 
>other.

> >

> > In my work, I grant identity to assertions. In simplest RDF, that

> > means granting an ID to a triple, which makes it a quad. But, since my

> > assertion (predicate instance) already has identity, nested triples

> > can be created directly.

> >

> > I'm not saying that's the only way to do such modeling; nested

> > conceptual graphs also make sense.

> >

> > On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 10:29 AM, Mark H Linehan <mhl@xxxxxxxxxxx>

> > wrote:

> > > Jack describes here an important aspect of relationships that is not

> > > directly

> > captured in graphs that treat the predicates as edges: the attributes

> > associated with the relationships.  Consider the triple {CompanyX

> > employs Person1} using a predicate called "employs".  The triple

> > implicitly describes what an English speaker would conceptualize as an

> > "employment", with attributes such as "start date", "end date", a

> > location, etc.  In RDF, you have to reify the relationship to

> > associate such attributes.  In UML, you could use an association class for

> this. In SBVR, you can define an "employment"

> > concept (with its attributes) and say that every instance of "employs"

> > is an instance of "employment".  These approaches are needed so they

> > can support queries such as "who is employed at xyz location", as well

> > as "what is the employment location of Person1").

> > >

> > > Making predicates into first-class components of a graph certainly

> > > helps

> > model the "objectification" aspects of relationships.  Even more

> > important is to permit the predicates to relate more than just subject

> > and object, so as to directly associate the attributes.

> > >

> > > Mark H. Linehan

> > > www.linkedin.com/in/MarkHLinehan

> > > -----Original Message-----

> > > From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

> > > [mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jack

> > > Park

> > > Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2014 12:21 PM

> > > To: [ontolog-forum]

> > > Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] Requesting Opinions on the Benefits of

> > > Predicates as Nodes

> > >

> > > I see an additional benefit, but not necessarily affiliated with the

> > > way you

> > describe an 'implicit node' -- where a predicate appears, still, to be

> > a second- class citizen in the graph.

> > >

> > > Let me explain.

> > >

> > > Mostly, it would seem that a predicate in a triple performs the task

> > > of

> > linking subject and object; it has no other reason for being there

> > other than to complete the assertion, e.g. A relates to B.

> > >

> > > But, consider this: if a specific *instance* of a predicate exists

> > > as a

> > connective between two objects, then it can be said to carry the full

> > semantics of the assertion itself. The instance is not an 'implicit'

> > node: it is a vertex like any other in a graph.

> > >

> > > If I say: A cause B, then the node which is the 'cause' predicate

> > > can carry

> > the full semantics of the triple itself. It's not just your father's

> > predicate anymore; it's a first class citizen.

> > >

> > > Why do I care?

> > >

> > > Consider that said predicate has entails a possibly complex biography.

> > > Who discovered it? What evidence supports it? What debates are in

> > > play

> > about it?

> > >

> > > I can't assign or otherwise link that biography to either A or B,

> > > but only to

> > the specific predicate that ties them together.

> > >

> > > If I might add, I will assert that predicates as first class

> > > citizens is perhaps

> > the only difference between an RDF graph and a topic map.

> > > I've built topic maps with RDF using the BigData RDF store; they

> > > work just

> > fine, can import and export from, e.g. OWL documents, but with a loss

> > of information when the topic map becomes OWL.

> > >

> > >

> > > On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 8:59 AM, Frank Guerino

> > <Frank.Guerino@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> > >> Hi All,

> > >>

> > >> For a number of years, we've been working with Data Driven

> > >> Synthesis as a means of rapidly generating Data Networks/Graphs and

> > >> the Knowledge Constructs (e.g. Library Catalogs, Indexes,

> > >> Taxonomies, Visualizations,

> > >> etc.) that help humans make easier & better sense of them  (If

> > >> interested, see NOUNZ).  Like many other Graph representations, we

> > >> use "triples" or "triplets" to help represent Semantic

> > >> Relationships, where descriptive Predicates are used as the binding

> > >> between Subject

> > Nodes and Object Nodes.

> > >>

> > >> To date, we've only treated Subjects and Objects as "Nodes" but

> > >> we've always known that we can (and have planned to) implement and

> > >> treat Predicates as a special type of "implicit" Node, as well.

> > >> (Time didn’t' allow us to get to doing so, until now.)  We believe

> > >> that doing so grants users of Graphs certain benefits.  We've

> > >> identified three (3)…

> > >>

> > >> #1: The first and obvious advantage is that users can now enter a

> > >> Graph from any Edge/Predicate as easily as they can enter from any

> > >> Node, and start to traverse the Graph based on that point of entry.

> > >>

> > >> #2: The second advantage of treating Predicates as Nodes is that a

> > >> Predicate can now be used as an "Index" or "Pointer" that allows

> > >> users to quickly find all Nodes which are tied to said Predicate

> > >> (or any Predicates that match certain traits).  In other words,

> > >> it's a way of asking the Graph to quickly identify all Nodes that

> > >> are connected to a specific Edge/Link/Predicate (or any of a common

> > >> set of Predicate traits).  This means that, in addition to being

> > >> able to ask "Node-oriented" questions of the Graph, you can now

> > >> also ask "Predicate/Edge-oriented" questions of the Graph, as well.

> > >> This leads to even more complex scenarios of being able to ask

> > >> questions of,

> > both, Nodes and Edges.

> > >>

> > >> #3: The third advantage (based on the second) is that traversal of

> > >> a Graph can be even quicker, leading to even shorter paths, because

> > >> instead of only traversing a Graph from Node-to-Node-to-Node,

> > >> through Nodes, users can now traverse from any Edge/Predicate to

> > >> any other Edge/Predicate, through Edges/Predicates.

> > >>

> > >> My question to the Community:  Aside from the above three, do you

> > >> see any other benefits that we're missing?

> > >>

> > >> Thanks for your help.

> > >>

> > >> My Best,

> > >>

> > >> Frank

> > >> --

> > >> Frank Guerino, Chairman

> > >> The International Foundation for Information Technology (IF4IT)

> > >> http://www.if4it.com

> > >> 1.908.294.5191 (M)

> > >>

> > >>

> > >>

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