ontolog-forum
[Top] [All Lists]

Re: [ontolog-forum] Hermeneutics and semiotics

To: "[ontolog-forum] " <ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
From: "Barkmeyer, Edward J" <edward.barkmeyer@xxxxxxxx>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 20:14:16 +0000
Message-id: <eea7c6b6f832490db41d30c9e5b4a0c3@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
I agree with John's additions for the most part.  The mercantile economy began 
to make inroads in the feudal economies in the 11th century, but it did not 
come to dominate until the end of the 13th century.  Similarly, monastic 
schools existed from the 8th century, and universities arose in the 12th 
century, but their impact came a bit later, when the economies made that impact 
possible.  The Black Death probably also delayed the Renaissance by wiping out 
urban populations in the 14th century.  Most historians now consider the 
Renaissance to have begun sometime in the 14th century and to have reached full 
flowering in the 16th century (greatly aided by Gutenberg's invention in 1456).    (01)

John is quite right that Islamic Spain was the principal conduit for Eastern 
knowledge.  The other main avenue was the Crusader ports in Syria and 
Palestine, which were still frequented by Italian traders after the Crusaders 
were gone.      (02)

John also wrote:
> In the 11th century, the Islamic countries (which included Spain) were far
> more advanced.  But the Arabic script was harder to print, and the schools did
> not have a theology-free BA degree.    (03)

No one disagrees with the first sentence.  But Islamic Spain fell into civil 
war in the late 11th century, and the Islamic world suffered a tremendous 
cultural setback with the incursion of the Mongols in the late 13th century and 
the Black Death in the 14th century.  I suspect those were more significant 
factors than Arabic script. Intellectual Islam was resurrected after the 
pacification/reunification under the Ottoman sultans around 1450, slowed by a 
second invasion under Tamerlane (c. 1430).  So the Islamic renaissance took 
place at the same time as the European one, giving rise to the pinnacle of 
Ottoman Islamic culture under Suleiman the Magnificent in the (glorious) 16th 
century.    (04)

-Ed    (05)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ontolog-forum-
> bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of John F Sowa
> Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 2:14 PM
> To: ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] Hermeneutics and semiotics
> 
> Bruce and Ed,
> 
> On these issues, I agree more with Ed.
> 
> Bruce
> >> I tend to see the growth of philosophy as an evolutionary process
> >> that takes place in sequential stages.  In a specific historical
> >> context and body of philosophical/cultural assumptions -- some new
> >> perspective emerges, partly informed by the context, partly in
> >> reaction to some perceived weakness in it.
> 
> Ed
> > So far so good.  The process is partly sequential in time; I think it
> > tends to be more of a helical spiral in content
> 
> A spiral is better.  But I'd emphasize that later versions are not always 
>better.
> Sometimes the new versions lose as much as they add.
> 
> Bruce
> >> Putting it very simply, science emerged in the renaissance in
> >> response to ideological religious claims...
> 
> Ed
> > I would argue that it is vastly oversimplified...  The emergence is a
> > consequence of many factors...
> 
> I agree with all six of Ed's points, but I'd emphasize that the innovations
> began in the 11th and 12th centuries.  I'd also like to add a few more points:
> 
> > the growth of universities, which, in spite of their often
> > ecclesiastical foundations, taught students to think and made them
> > familiar with much of the classical literature;
> 
> They were *always* ecclesiastical, not just often.
> 
> But the critical innovation was the distinction between a Bachelor's degree
> based on the seven liberal arts (Grammar, Logic, Rhetoric, Arithmetic,
> Geometry, Music, Astronomy) and the graduate schools of Medicine, Law,
> and Theology.
> 
> Because of that division, theology was absent from the BA curriculum.
> 
> > the spread of scientific and mathematical knowledge into Europe from
> > China, India and the Islamic intellectual centers;
> 
> The primary flow was through Islamic Spain. That led to the rediscovery of
> Aristotle and Galen (from Arabic to Latin
> translations) as well as Hindu-Arabic numerals, mathematics, technology, and
> lots of words beginning with 'al-':  alcohol, alcove, alembic, alfalfa, 
>alkali,
> algebra, Algol (the star), algorithm, almanac, Altair (another star).
> 
> Other Arabic borrowings don't begin with al-.  For example, 'guitar' comes
> from Arabic 'qitar' from Greek 'kithara'.
> 
> > Gutenberg's movable type, which made possible the broad dissemination
> > of new ideas faster than the Church and State powers could rein them
> > in;
> 
> And that was a major reason why Europe progressed much faster.
> In the 11th century, the Islamic countries (which included Spain) were far
> more advanced.  But the Arabic script was harder to print, and the schools did
> not have a theology-free BA degree.
> 
> John
> 
> __________________________________________________________
> _______
> Message Archives: http://ontolog.cim3.net/forum/ontolog-forum/
> Config Subscr: http://ontolog.cim3.net/mailman/listinfo/ontolog-forum/
> Unsubscribe: mailto:ontolog-forum-leave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Shared Files: http://ontolog.cim3.net/file/ Community Wiki:
> http://ontolog.cim3.net/wiki/ To join: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-
> bin/wiki.pl?WikiHomePage#nid1J
>     (06)

_________________________________________________________________
Message Archives: http://ontolog.cim3.net/forum/ontolog-forum/  
Config Subscr: http://ontolog.cim3.net/mailman/listinfo/ontolog-forum/  
Unsubscribe: mailto:ontolog-forum-leave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Shared Files: http://ontolog.cim3.net/file/
Community Wiki: http://ontolog.cim3.net/wiki/ 
To join: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?WikiHomePage#nid1J    (07)

<Prev in Thread] Current Thread [Next in Thread>