On Thu, May 23, 2013 11:50, Kingsley Idehen wrote:
> On 5/23/13 11:24 AM, doug foxvog wrote:
>> On Wed, May 22, 2013 12:44, Kingsley Idehen wrote:
>>> On 5/22/13 11:00 AM, doug foxvog wrote:
>>>> ...
>>>> RDF does have awkward ways of
>>>> representing such relations, but a syntax that is not limited to
>>>> triples would be (imho) far better to use, especially when "targeting
>>>> less technical audiences."
>>> Yes-ish, but I don't know of any non technical audience profiles that
>>> would be confused by structured data being expressed (presented) and
>>> encoded using patterns that resemble basic sentence structure.
>> "Basic sentence structure" involves lists. (01)
> Yes, and so does RDF. (02)
It has a technique for representing them -- basically CADRing down
terminally nested pairs. (03)
> But to be more specific about my point, I am
> referring to Subject, Predicate, and Object. (04)
That's the problem. (05)
> Basic observation enables the subject observer describe what's observed
> using subject->predicate->object based statements/propositions.
> Of course, that isn't the end of the story, but its are very useful and
> powerful starting point. Much better than not having it at all. (06)
Peano functions are useful in mathematics. They are a very useful and
powerful starting point. However, even most users of arithmetic
would prefer to have addition and multiplication to having the limited
form. (07)
An ontology symbolism should certainly allow the expression of triples --
I was not suggesting "not having it at all". But it is far more powerful
not to put the ontology into such a straight jacket -- even if it is a
powerful straight jacket. (08)
>> In English one has direct and
>> indirect objects. One can say, "one from three is two". These are
>> basic sentence structures that are not natively expressed as triples
>> and can not be simply expressed as triples. (09)
> RDF isn't aimed at expressing every nuance. (010)
It's more than "every nuance". RDF explicitly disallows common
forms of expression -- forms both common to language and to
logic. (011)
>>> RDBMS
>>> vendors successfully built an industry around a misaligned view of data
>>> via the two-dimensional table and literal identifiers. If that could be
>>> done, I do believe one could also build an industry around a more
>>> accurate conceptual view of data using an entity relationship model
>>> based on subject->predicate->object relations expression syntax that
>>> can be encoded using a variety of notations. (012)
>> Allowing objects instead of literals certainly eases things. But
>> restricting the 2D table to having only two columns
>> (with one holding the row
>> identifier) greatly complicates them. (013)
> RDF isn't 2D. You have relations across the ABox, TBox, and RBox. (014)
Yes, it's far simpler than 2D. It is a way of representing line segments.
So it's 1D, with different color lines (relations) and with line segments
as well as points as the "end points" of the segments. (015)
>>> In my experience, RDF is all about enhancing the existing entity
>>> relationship model [1] by adding the following to the mix:
>>> 1. explicit (rather than implicit) machine- and human-comprehensible
>>> entity relationship semantics;
>> but restricting them to binary relations. I note that Chen's
>> dissertation
>> [1]
>> defines relations as n-ary:
>> "A relationship set, Ri, is a mathematical relation among n entities
>> each taken from an entity set:
>> {[e1, e2, . . . , en] | e1 E E1, e2 E E2, . . . , en E En},
>> and each tuple of entities, [el, e2, , . . , en], is a
>> relationship." (016)
>> The n-ary entity relationship semantics of RDF is not easily human
>> comprehensible. (017)
> The following statement is comprehensible to a majority of literate
> humans: (018)
You are not giving an example of an n-ary RDF relationship, so this is
not responsive. (019)
A Turtle-RDF snippet using namespaces and not using URIs might
be able to be figured out by a majority of English readers. E.g.,
ex:BarakObama ex:fatherOf ex:SashaObama (020)
The vast majority of English readers would have no idea
what an RDF-XML statement, such as the below meant. (021)
> <http://ontolog.cim3.net/forum/ontolog-forum/2013-05/msg00196.html>
> <http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#type>
> <http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/Document> . (022)
> Meaning:
> The entity denoted by the URI
> <http://ontolog.cim3.net/forum/ontolog-forum/2013-05/msg00196.html>
> is of type document. (023)
Most English readers don't know what URIs are. (024)
>>> 2. use of IRIs as the mechanism for denoting subject, predicate, and
>>> objects of relations.
>>> The perceived awkwardness of the above shouldn't be a definitive
>>> detraction per se. :-)
>> As long as one only models binary relations, the awkwardness is
>> avoided. But even a claw hammer is not the best tool for each
>> job. (025)
> RDF isn't a silver bullet. It's a tool for a very specific job (webby
> structured data representation). Even the most ardent support of RDF
> couldn't see it as a silver bullet :) (026)
XML is webby, and not restricted to triples. So the job is more
specific than you state; it's webby structured binary data
representation. (027)
People put databases with data that was not naturally restricted
to triples on the internet long before RDF, XML, or even HTML were
invented. They were on the Web as soon as TimBL got the first
part of the Web going at CERN. (028)
Gee, i've never thought of a silver bullet as a straw man before. (029)
Regards,
doug foxvog (030)
> Kingsley
>>
>> -- doug foxvog
>>
>>> Links:
>>>
>>> [1] http://bit.ly/YTdz3N -- Peter Chen's 1976 dissertation about the
>>> unified view of data using the entity relationship model .
>>>
>>> Kingsley
>>>> -- doug foxvog
>>>>
>>>>> Kingsley
>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Matthew West
>>>>>> Information Junction
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>>>>>> Mobile: +44 750 3385279
>>>>>> Skype: dr.matthew.west
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Kingsley Idehen
>>>>>>> Founder & CEO
>>>>>>> OpenLink Software
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Kingsley Idehen
>>>>> Founder & CEO
>>>>> OpenLink Software
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>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Kingsley Idehen
>>> Founder & CEO
>>> OpenLink Software
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>
>
> --
>
> Regards,
>
> Kingsley Idehen
> Founder & CEO
> OpenLink Software
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