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Re: [ontolog-forum] What is the role of an upper level ontology?

To: 'Hassan Aït-Kaci' <hak@xxxxxxx>
Cc: "'[ontolog-forum] '" <ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
From: "Matthew West" <dr.matthew.west@xxxxxxxxx>
Date: Mon, 20 May 2013 12:02:21 +0100
Message-id: <519a02be.c248b40a.4b9f.ffffbbb0@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>

Dear Hassan,

Even for mereological part-of there are problems with change over time unless you take a 4D approach.

A good book is:

Simons, P. Parts: a study in ontology, Oxford University Press, 1987, ISBN 0-19-924146-5

Still the definitive book on the subject.

 

Regards

 

Matthew West                           

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From: Hassan Aït-Kaci [mailto:hassanaitkaci@xxxxxxxxx]
Sent: 20 May 2013 11:51
To: Matthew West
Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] What is the role of an upper level ontology?

 

Dear Matthew,

Point taken.

In my view "part-of" is (or should be) always transitive. My "example" was in fact an exercise (for my own sake) in whether or not one could come up with an interpretation of "part-of" in Natural Language that would not be so. I agree that the best I could come up with was a tad stretched and relied on a "loose" interpretation of "part-of".

Be that as it may, I am also interested in how meaning may be carried by (slightly) incorrect/incoherent expressions in NL since people do exchange meanings with such "loose" expressions and manage to make (pragmatic) inference using them. If we hope ever to enable computer-based systems to emulate or tolerate such loose communication, then non-transitive relations that ought to be transitive in a strict meaning of their terms may arise.

Regards,

-hak

On 5/20/2013 12:29 PM, Matthew West wrote:

Dear Hassan,

It makes no difference. Just because people use certain words does not mean that they carry the same meaning. A team being “part-of” a club is very loose talk. It really means that a club runs and organizes a team. With the relationship between a club and a sports federation the relationship is really that the club is a member of the federation. These are quite different relationships both from each other and from what a mereological sum “part-of” is. You first have to distinguish the meanings before you can start asking questions about whether the relationships are transitive or not.

Part-of in the context of a mereological sum is always transitive. If you do not mean part-of in the sense of a mereological sum, your mileage may vary, and you are likely to end up with confusion if you pretend it is the same part-of as mereological sum and fail to make a clear distinction.

 

Regards

 

Matthew West                            

Information  Junction

Tel: +44 1489 880185

Mobile: +44 750 3385279

Skype: dr.matthew.west

matthew.west@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

http://www.informationjunction.co.uk/

https://sites.google.com/site/drmatthewwest/

This email originates from Information Junction Ltd. Registered in England and Wales No. 6632177.
Registered office: 8 Ennismore Close, Letchworth Garden City, Hertfordshire, SG6 2SU.

 

 

 

From: Hassan Aït-Kaci [mailto:hassanaitkaci@xxxxxxxxx]
Sent: 19 May 2013 11:41
To: Matthew West
Cc: '[ontolog-forum] '
Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] What is the role of an upper level ontology?

 

On 5/19/2013 12:26 PM, Matthew West wrote:

Dear Hassan,

This is conflating two things:

a)      Membership of a club to a sports federation, and of a player to a sports club

b)      Whole-part.

I would argue that it is the membership relation that is not transitive, but that it is quite reasonable to create a mereological sum of the players of the clubs that are members of a sports club and of a sports federation, and that this is transitive.


I was referring to: (1) team is-part-of club and (2) club is-part-of federation - although (3) not every such clubs' team is-part-of federation. I was not referring to player is-member-of team - this is only incidental is the definition of a club being part of a federation if it has an all-professional team. Such a team would be part of a federation, but not the other non-pro teams on such a club. One could come up with another condition for a club to be part of a federation - say if it has at least one team that qualifies a being part of the federation (whatever the condition may be).



 

Regards

 

Matthew West                           

Information  Junction

Tel: +44 1489 880185

Mobile: +44 750 3385279

Skype: dr.matthew.west

matthew.west@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

http://www.informationjunction.co.uk/

https://sites.google.com/site/drmatthewwest/

This email originates from Information Junction Ltd. Registered in England and Wales No. 6632177.
Registered office: 8 Ennismore Close, Letchworth Garden City, Hertfordshire, SG6 2SU.

 

 

 

From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Hassan Aït-Kaci
Sent: 19 May 2013 07:26
To: jmcclure@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] What is the role of an upper level ontology?

 

On 5/19/2013 1:43 AM, jmcclure@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:

Could you provide example of a nontransitive part relation


A sport team is part of a sport club. A club is part of a sport federation if it has at least one team all of whose members are professional players. So a sport team may be part of a club, but not part of a federation.

--
-hak

 

--
-hak

 

--
-hak


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