Exactly. The most real "Thing" is the obligations, rights and
other agreements in the Contract, but the contract itself is
merely an "Instrument". (01)
This is a good use of the word instrument (and is used in the
financial industry all the time), since as you say, it is your
means, your instrument, to enforce your rights as agreed to in
the contract. (02)
Of course some contracts are not written, but are implied in a
transaction. Statute helps with that. (03)
Rights, as a thing, are brought into being either by contract, by
law or by jurisdiction, with a clear level of precedence between
these (not all rights defined in a contract need prove to be
enforceable when challenged in a court of law, since they may be
over-ridden by statute). The reciprocal of the Rights of one
party, is the Obligations of the other. (04)
Mike (05)
On 07/07/2011 18:20, Dave McComb wrote:
> My understanding is that if you have a contract that must be reduced to
>writing to be enforceable per the Statute of Frauds (which isn't so much about
>fraud but about what has to be written to be enforceable) and if both parties
>destroy the paper in their vaults, then I'd say the contract is gone.
>
> But of course if you destroy yours and the other guy doesn't you're out of
>luck.
>
> My take is the contract is the mutual obligations (not the paper) but you may
>need paper to enforce your rights.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>[mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Mike Bennett
> Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2011 11:13 AM
> To: mail@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; [ontolog-forum]
> Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] Why most classifications are fuzzy
>
> Very good point. What's in the vault (or on a record at the
> custodian) is just a record of the contract. In fact it would be
> more correct to say that what's real is the rights and
> obligations defined in the contract, with the contract itself
> merely an instrument for these. And of course there are contracts
> implicit in transactions, which may or may not be formalised
> later by a written contract in some form.
>
> Mike
>
> On 07/07/2011 18:01, Chris Partridge wrote:
>> Mike,
>>
>> Is the paper in the vault the contract - or the record of the contract?
>> So, for example, if you destroy the paper, does the law say you have
>> destroyed the contract?
>>
>> Chris
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ontolog-forum-
>>> bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Mike Bennett
>>> Sent: 07 July 2011 17:37
>>> To: [ontolog-forum]
>>> Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] Why most classifications are fuzzy
>>>
>>> David,
>>>
>>> There is no problem describing financial products ontologically.
>>> Calipers are not a requirement. All financial products are contracts, and
>>> contracts are a real thing regardless of whether they consist of paper in
>> a
>>> vault (as a few still do) or are maintained electronically.
>>>
>>> If you don't think contracts are real, try breaking one :)
>>>
>>> The dimensions along which they are defined are, as you rightly suggest,
>>> where it gets interesting. One look at the ISO 10962 Classification of
>> Financial
>>> Instruments standard will show what a challenge it is to try and
>> articificially
>>> shoe-horn the whole lot into one dimension - you simply can't.
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>> On 07/07/2011 16:21, David Eddy wrote:
>>>> John -
>>>>
>>>> On 2011-07-06, at 12:45 PM, John F. Sowa wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> And a warning: Unless you can find an immutable law of nature that
>>>>> creates a classification, don't expect it to be a solid foundation
>>>>> for a "standard ontology".
>>>> Agreed.
>>>>
>>>> My view of (imagined) reality has been largely financial services
>>>> (e.g. mutual funds, brokerage, banking,& various forms of insurance).
>>>> In my career, I have only worked directly for a single firm that
>>>> actually made a physical product (junk jewelry)...
>>>> otherwise everything has been paper pushing, describing various facets
>>>> of non-dimensional products.
>>>>
>>>> Quite naturally, since these industries are all conjured out of thin
>>>> air, there are no natural laws to impose organizational discipline.
>>>>
>>>> From what I've seen, "organization" is largely the last minute panic
>>>> to make the next deadline. Does tend to leave a chaotic residue which
>>>> only gets worse over time.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Since this ontology interest has arisen, it has been rattling around
>>>> in the back of my mind if ontologies can be applied to things like
>>>> financial "products."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Personally I vacillate between describing financial "products" as
>>>> either "non-dimensional" or "N-dimensional." In any case these
>>>> products are stuff that cannot be put on a scale& weighted or have a
>>>> caliper applied to them. It's just information which as far as I know
>>>> we have no idea how to measure other than silly things like "lines of
>>>> code."
>>>>
>>>> ___________________
>>>> David Eddy
>>>> deddy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>> --
>>> Mike Bennett
>>> Director
>>> Hypercube Ltd.
>>> 89 Worship Street
>>> London EC2A 2BF
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> (06)
--
Mike Bennett
Director
Hypercube Ltd.
89 Worship Street
London EC2A 2BF
Tel: +44 (0) 20 7917 9522
Mob: +44 (0) 7721 420 730
www.hypercube.co.uk
Registered in England and Wales No. 2461068 (07)
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