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Re: [ontolog-forum] (renamed) Terms with fixed/multiple meanings

To: "'[ontolog-forum] '" <ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
From: "Rich Cooper" <rich@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 10:49:58 -0700
Message-id: <20100910175005.4D0DA138D08@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>

Bill,

 

Agreed - its not possible to assign a single meaning to most real world sized ontology terms.  It is true, as John Sowa and Doug Foxvog among others state, that WordNet was not called an ontology by its creators, and it certainly misses the inference wagon, but toma'to, tomato, IMHO, I don’t see much progress in other more “official” designated ontologies.  So the practical test of whether some cluster of knowledge is called an ontology is just an exercise in English definitions, IMHO.  

 

There may be some hope of disambiguation when we figure out how to plug in the interpretER and her unique associations with words and phrases.  But the discussions here assume (incorrectly) that ontologies will be unambiguous.  I don’t agree with that, though there are some great ontologists here and I am just a country boy in the ontology forest.  

 

-Rich

 

 

Sincerely,

Rich Cooper

EnglishLogicKernel.com

Rich AT EnglishLogicKernel DOT com

9 4 9 \ 5 2 5 - 5 7 1 2

 

-----Original Message-----
From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Burkett, William [USA]
Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 8:45 AM
To: [ontolog-forum] ; doug@xxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] (renamed) Terms with fixed/multiple meanings

 

Critical error:  The last sentence should read "it isn't possible" or "it's not possible"!!!

 

Doh!!!  (reread, Bill, reread!!!)

 

Bill

 

-----Original Message-----

From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Burkett, William [USA]

Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 9:40 AM

To: doug@xxxxxxxxxx; [ontolog-forum]

Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] (renamed) Terms with fixed/multiple meanings

 

Doug --

 

I'd like to respond to just one of your points here, since it seems the conversation has already moved on past this point.

 

>Why?  Every author of Java code uses the same meaning of "method" and

>other reserved words.  Every HTML author uses the same meaning of <title>.

 

There is a huge huge difference between Java and ontologies.  Java, as a programming language, is a closed semantic system.  The meaning of the terms in the Java language are precisely defined wrt the behavior of computing machinery. 

 

Ontologies, on the other hand, do not describe the nature or behavior of the closed-world of a computing machine.  They describe the very-open real world and we - people - choose the terms we use to describe the real world.  Therefore it's possible - imho - to assign a single and precise meaning to a term.  Unless, of course, you are the creator and sole user of that term.  :-)

 

Bill

 

 

-----Original Message-----

From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of doug foxvog

Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2010 2:19 PM

To: [ontolog-forum]

Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] (renamed) Terms with fixed/multiple meanings

 

On Thu, September 9, 2010 12:03, Burkett, William [USA] said:

> John: I understand your point that a "term" in a formal language (e.g.,

> ontology) should have a single, unique definition - this allows automated

> processors to (soundly) do something with statements in the language.

 

> It is important to point out, however, that this requirement addresses a

> very small set of users "out there in web-land" - less than 1% I would

> guess.

 

Why?  Every author of Java code uses the same meaning of "method" and

other reserved words.  Every HTML author uses the same meaning of <title>.

 

Of course, most people who run JAVA programs don't know a thing about JAVA,

nor do people who create web pages enter the HTML manually.  They have

tools that compose the web pages for them.  We similarly have to get to

the point that that people who enter data into the semantic web don't

need to know the details of the data encoding (or the ontologies!) just

as data enterers don't need to know the details of databases into which

they are entering data.

 

>  The "semantic web" will never materialize with this requirement

> because, simply, a very very large percentage of data-creators don't have

> the understanding and won't devote the time/rigor required to create these

> semantically precise statements.

 

Thus we need data entry tools for them.  They use data entry tools when

putting data into databases.  Why should it be different for the Semantic

Web.

 

Coders need to know about existing ontologies and the correct way to

reference them and determine the appropriate terms to use -- just as

JAVA coders or designers of webpage creation software need to know

the syntax of the languages that they use.

 

> Most will create their schemas and

> ontologies and create their data using their natural language

> skills/capabilities/facilities - leading to multiple and evolving

> meanings.

 

Here, you are partially referring to coders, but also referring

to the use of natural language.  The two should be kept separate.

 

Early on, programmers wrote the subroutines for doing the same

thing many times.  But now, with huge libraries of methods,

skilled programmers know how to find and select the methods they

need for a specific purpose.  Selecting a semantic term for a

specific purpose should be similar.

 

> So, realistically, except for a very small population, "terms"

> that are used to name things in web-land *will* have multiple meanings.

 

With appropriate tools, we'll move beyond this.  Hand-written web pages

were initially full of bugs, so over the decades, they went out of style

as tools and standards for creating better ones became available.  The

creation of such tools and standards would hopefully shorten this learning

curve for the Semantic Web.

 

The creation of an Open Ontology Repository would do a lot to solve this

problem.  Search tools for determining appropriate well-defined semantic

terms are needed.

 

-- doug f

 

> We can exclude those undisciplined cases and operate in our own small,

> rigorous, well-defined world - but how useful will that really be?  (Like

> everything in AI, it seems, it'll be useful in special cases, but not in

> general.)

> 

> As I write this, it brings the question of scope to my mind: in our

> discussions here are we ONLY interested in talking about formal ontologies

> with precisely-defined semantics that can soundly reasoned over, or are we

> talking about the "semantic web" (or "semantic enterprises") in general

> where, presumably, we can evolve to a point where processors can do

> something will all the data "out there in web-land"?

> 

> 

> Bill

> 

> 

> 

> 

> -----Original Message-----

> From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

> [mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of John F. Sowa

> Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 4:04 PM

> To: ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

> Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] Semantic Enterprise Architecture -

> Interoperability?

> 

> David and Doug,

> 

> DF>> a Semantic Web needs ontologies of terms with fixed meanings

> 

> DE> Is this saying that a term (word, phrase, acronym, abbreviation,

>> whatever) can only have a single meaning?

> 

> We must always distinguish the names of relations and instances

> in any formal language from the words in any natural language

> that is being mapped to that formal language.

> 

> DF used the word 'term' for the symbols in some formal language.

> Those symbols should have unique definitions.

> 

> DE was talking about the words used in some NL that is being

> mapped to the symbols of some formal language.

> 

> The names used in the formalism should never be identified

> with the words in the NL -- even when their spelling happens

> to be similar.

> 

> John

> 

> 

> 

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=============================================================

doug foxvog    doug@xxxxxxxxxx   http://ProgressiveAustin.org

 

"I speak as an American to the leaders of my own nation. The great

initiative in this war is ours. The initiative to stop it must be ours."

    - Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

=============================================================

 

 

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