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Re: [ontolog-forum] RDF & RDFS (was... Is there something I missed?)

To: "'Pat Hayes'" <phayes@xxxxxxx>
Cc: "'[ontolog-forum] '" <ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
From: "Patrick Cassidy" <pat@xxxxxxxxx>
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 17:30:50 -0500
Message-id: <025801c988aa$90dc62f0$b29528d0$@com>

With respect to ontologies, I would consider two ontologies isagelous if they can be translated into each other, resulting in no loss of information and no addition of information in any one translation step: a round-trip translation would result in exactly the same ontology, syntactically and logically, though the order of the elements in any *list* does not have to be identical, if it makes no difference to the logic.  The round-tripped ontology would have to generate the same inferences from the same data.  The information could, in one form (say, an if-then rule in text form in OWL), be in a formatted text, while in another form (e.g. CL) it could be in rules executable by a CL-conformant reasoner.  I would consider the translation to be lossless if the same elements are created after a round trip.  It would be the task of the translator program to be sure that there is no loss or addition of information.

   I imagine that it might be difficult to prove mathematically that two ontologies in the same format (say the original and a round-tripped version) are in fact the same.  I don’t know enough about “normal forms” to know if or how this could be proved.  An operational test with a suite of test data or problems might at least provide some probabilistic assurance that they are the same.  Perhaps the translator could be structured to create its own normal form in any given format, and in that case perhaps translating any two ontologies into the same format might be able to prove that the original two are isagelous (perhaps if one is concerned only with the logical structure, one might ignore comments and the actual labels?  In this case the labels for the data to be processed would have to be translated as well)

 

   As you can see, I haven’t tried to formalize this notion of “isagelous” wrt ontologies, though I suspect that some notion of “same information” is meaningful there too.  I suspect that there is some (a lot?) of work along this line of which I am utterly ignorant.

 

Pat

 

Patrick Cassidy

MICRA, Inc.

908-561-3416

cell: 908-565-4053

cassidy@xxxxxxxxx

 

From: Pat Hayes [mailto:phayes@xxxxxxx]
Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 5:01 PM
To: [ontolog-forum] ; Patrick Cassidy
Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] RDF & RDFS (was... Is there something I missed?)

 

 

On Feb 6, 2009, at 3:46 PM, Patrick Cassidy wrote:



PatH,

   I had occasion, years back when I was doing DNA research, to coin a term “isagelous” to refer to abstract informational objects that have the same information content, but in different physical or syntactic form.   It is from Greek, “iso” meaning “same” and “agelos” meaning “information”.  It can apply to a sequence of DNA and its corresponding RNA transcript, or to a file and its compressed version, or to a message and its encrypted form.  It also might be applied to different implementations of the same algorithm in different computer languages, if there are no functional differences.

   Thus – “they are isagelous implementations of the same algorithm”

  Would this serve?

 

 

Useful word, to be sure. I notice though that in your example you still have to say "algorithm". So transcribe this to ontologies, where we might have isagelous formalizations, in CL and OWL-2, of the same.... what?

 

PatH

 

PS is it pronounced i-SA-gelous or isa-GEL-ous?



Pat

 

Patrick Cassidy

MICRA, Inc.

908-561-3416

cell: 908-565-4053

 

From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Pat Hayes
Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 1:02 PM
To: [ontolog-forum] ; Matthew West
Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] RDF & RDFS (was... Is there something I missed?)

 

 

On Feb 6, 2009, at 1:28 AM, Matthew West wrote:




Dear Pat,

 

PS - I'm not sure about where this idea of a mental model of an ontology
came from. I never mentioned it, and I certainly don't have an ontology in
my head. Of course the ontology has to be represented in some way - CL,
RDFS, OWL, UML, EXPRESS, arse-barcodes, who cares ?

 

What is this thing that is in common between al these different file formats? Where is it, if not in your head?  This is rather like the old chestnut of saying what exactly a program is, if you can write the 'same' program in several wildly different programming languages. For example, quicksort can be implemented in just about any programming language, and its still quicksort. In CS we have the useful distinction between algorithm and program, maybe we need a similar terminological distinction for ontologies. Any suggestions?

 

[MW] Ok. So is the quicksort program in your head the same as the quicksort program in my head (I even remember writing one once in Basic)? Talking about what is in someone’s head just doesn’t cut it I’m afraid. It is at best a loose way of talking.

 

Speaking as a card-carrying cognitive scientist, I have to disagree. We have to be taking intuitions seriously here. They are our prime, perhaps our only, source of guidance when writing formal theories. 

 

I think that fear of talking about intuitions is a residue of the intellectual blight caused by behaviorist psychology. Ironically, behaviorism has been a rejected methodology in psychology for about 30 years now, but the news of its demise seems not to have reached everywhere else yet.  




Where you have several things that have something in common, what you do have is an abstraction, and my extensional analysis would make that a class.

 

Fine, but that says nothing. Any set of things is a class: but a class containing, say, a C++ implementaiton of Quicksort and a LISP implementation of a parser, isn't any kind of algorithmic abstraction. What makes some classes useful is that their instances have something in common: and that thing that they have in common has to be more than just being in the same class, to avoid circularity. 




So if I have 5 copies of the same content

 

There, that will do. Its the content that they have in common. 




, there is a class that represents the pattern

 

or is the pattern?  See my point? Its impossible to avoid talking of this thing-in-common, whatever it is. Maybe we should face up to this need, and agree on a common terminology. 

 

Pat

 

 

that is common to those 5 files. And if I have the “same” ontology that is represented in different languages, then there is  a class that represents that sameness.

 

Regards

 

Matthew West                           

Information  Junction

Tel: +44 560 302 3685

Mobile: +44 750 3385279

 

This email originates from Information Junction Ltd. Registered in England and Wales No. 6632177.

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