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Re: [ontolog-forum] Current Semantic Web Layer Cake

To: "Barker, Sean (UK)" <Sean.Barker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: "[ontolog-forum] " <ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
From: Pat Hayes <phayes@xxxxxxx>
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 13:18:36 -0500
Message-id: <p06230904c2dd11bdd35f@[10.100.0.67]>
>Chris
>
>The key sentence is the next one:
>
>"Its only when we ground the semantics of the data in the behaviour of
>the application/organization that we have any hope of success, and then
>only after a long and painful process of testing."
>
>The point being that the terms of the definition need to be linked to
>real behaviour, and not to an interpretation of a model, since the
>objective of the exchange is always to get the organizations to work
>together, not to get the computers to agree that they could work
>together because they have compatible models.    (01)

With the utmost respect for the views of those 
who have to work in the dirty real world, I 
suggest that this is quite the wrong conclusion 
to draw, and indeed is one reason why industrial 
interoperability standards have such a lousy 
track record.    (02)

It is true, of course, that the ultimate test of 
any system of information exchange must be the 
improvement in overall performance of a system; 
some increase in real "value" for somebody. But 
there are several important observations to make. 
First, "system" here is a very floppy word. In 
some cases, the chief utility of an improvement 
in communication is to eliminate a system 
altogether and replace it with something else, 
rather than incrementally improve its 
performance. But my main concern is a perception 
that I seem to see here, that 'interpretation of 
a model' is a merely theoretical kind of matter, 
in contrast with the down-to-earth business of 
founding definitions in 'real behavior'. This is 
a misunderstanding. Interpretations and models 
(the terms are effectively interchangeable at 
this level of discussion) provide a way to 
achieve interoperability which retains 
*meanings*, independently of how those meanings 
are being put to use. It does not however mean 
that the transmitted information cannot be put to 
use. This is very important, since while it is 
(as we see here illustrated daily) difficult to 
agree on matters of meaning, to agree on 
procedures and behavior is virtually impossible; 
and, centrally, unnecessary. It is well-known 
that if meaning is defined in terms of procedures 
or processes then it becomes harder to establish 
commonality of meaning, not easier. Exchanging 
programs is not usually the best way to achieve 
interoperability, as witness perhaps 50 years 
experiences of repeated failures of any number of 
'universal' programming languages (anybody 
remember Algol-68 or IDA?). Exchanging terms in a 
language whose meaning is defined by programs (cf 
EXPRESS in ISO 10303-11) is little better. 
Exchanging terms defined using datatypes (XMLS) 
is better, even if the types themselves are 
defined algorithmically. Exchanging terms defined 
using an assertional language at least holds out 
the hope of allowing information to be separated 
from the processes which use it, which seems to 
be a prerequisite for useful information 
exchange, especially between vendors and 
customers. And, finally but significantly, 
meanings are much less likely than procedures and 
processes to be proprietary or secret.    (03)

Pat Hayes    (04)

>
>Sean Barker
>Bristol, UK
>
>This mail is publicly posted to a distribution list as part of a process
>of public discussion, any automatically generated statements to the
>contrary non-withstanding. It is the opinion of the author, and does not
>represent an official company view.
>
>>  -----Original Message-----
>>  From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>  [mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
>>  Christopher Menzel
>>  Sent: 06 August 2007 14:33
>>  To: [ontolog-forum]
>>  Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] Current Semantic Web Layer Cake
>>
>>
>>                 *** WARNING ***
>>
>>  This mail has originated outside your organization, either
>>  from an external partner or the Global Internet.
>>       Keep this in mind if you answer this message.
>>
>>  On Aug 6, 2007, at 4:03 AM, Barker, Sean (UK) wrote:
>>  > ...We suffer from identical syntax and allegedly identical
>  > semantics
>>  > all the time in data exchange (ISO 10303), so I don't see why logic
>>  > should be any difference.
>>
>>  Is this really the same issue?  The original post had to do
>>  with the fact that one can choose different semantic
>>  foundations for one's underlying *logic* -- e.g., classical
>>  vs some form of negation-as- failure.  Using different logics
>>  in different domains on the same data can of course lead to
>>  different inferences, but *that* different logics are being
>>  adopted in those domains is something that can be known and
>>  (if necessary) planned for up front.
>>
>>  The data exchange problem that you appear to be referring to
>>  (forgive me if I'm mistaken) is that the intended meanings of
>>  terms used in the data to be exchanged are often not fully
>>  specified.  The latter seems to me to be exactly the problem
>>  that ontologies are supposed to solve, and may require a lot
>>  of work on both ends of an exchange before the "semantics" of
>>  the data is nailed down.
>>
>>  Chris Menzel
>>
>
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>>
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>    (05)


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