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Re: [uom-ontology-std] retitled: magnitude of a quantity

To: edbark@xxxxxxxx, uom-ontology-std <uom-ontology-std@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
From: Pat Hayes <phayes@xxxxxxx>
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 23:38:47 -0500
Message-id: <ADC23C42-4AB6-452E-80D6-A4B86281A2D7@xxxxxxx>

On Jul 16, 2009, at 10:43 AM, Ed Barkmeyer wrote:    (01)

> Rijgersberg, Hajo wrote:
>
>> A dimension is not represented by a product of powers of base  
>> units, but
>> by product of base *dimensions*.
>
> Exactly!  I hope the working group understands this point.  It is very
> important.
>
>> And - although less clear to me but as
>> far as I can see - systems of units can have different base  
>> dimensions.
>
> Yes.  That is why the VIM describes a system of units as _selecting_
> 'base quantities', i.e., "base dimensions" in Hajo's terms.  The VIM
> does not suggest that any particular set of "base dimensions" is
> "natural"; it just says that SI selected a particular set.  The one
> requirement on the set of base dimensions seems to be: Every dimension
> can be represented by a product of base dimensions.  (Philosophically,
> that may be difficult to ensure; what we really have as a basis for  
> that
> assertion is modern physics, and we already know there are some
> contradictions.)
>
>> Furthermore, let me emphasize that a dimension only *has*  
>> expressions in
>> terms of base dimensions of systems of units. It *is* not such an
>> expression as such. Many dimensions exist that have the same  
>> expressions
>> in terms of other dimenions.
>
> I agree that the dimension is not the same thing as its representation
> in base dimensions.  That the relationship is not 1-to-1 may be a
> serious problem, because it leads to difficulties in the  
> identification
> of individuals.  What property distinguishes one dimension from  
> another?
>  How can we tell whether (= D1 D2) or (NOT (= D1 D2))?  Do we simply
> use the unique naming hypothesis, i.e., if the spellings are different
> they are different unless someone tells us they are the same?    (02)

Blech. That is a *default* UNA, which is doubly barbaric. These sets  
are not going to get exhorbitantly large. Let us stay in classical  
logic and list the inequalities explicitly. I hereby offer the CLIF  
definition of the useful variadic relation AllDifferent:    (03)

(forall (x)(AllDifferent x))
(forall (x y ...)(iff (AllDifferent x y ...)(and (not (= x y)) 
(AllDifferent x ...)(AllDifferent y ...)) ))    (04)

AllDifferent is true of any sequence of arguments none of which co- 
refer.    (05)

Pat    (06)

>
> -Ed
>
>> However, presently in OUM many dimensions are merged, but they still
>> *have* expressions in terms of base dimensions of systems of units.
>> Depending on the outcome of the discussion I am willing to  
>> distinguish
>> these dimensions again, like used to be the case in previuos  
>> versions of
>> OUM. It is an interesting on-going issue and discussion.
>>
>> Regards, Hajo
>
> -- 
> Edward J. Barkmeyer                        Email: edbark@xxxxxxxx
> National Institute of Standards & Technology
> Manufacturing Systems Integration Division
> 100 Bureau Drive, Stop 8263                Tel: +1 301-975-3528
> Gaithersburg, MD 20899-8263                FAX: +1 301-975-4694
>
> "The opinions expressed above do not reflect consensus of NIST,
>  and have not been reviewed by any Government authority."
>
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>    (07)

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