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Re: [ontology-summit] Schema.org and COSMO

To: "'Ontology Summit 2014 discussion'" <ontology-summit@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
From: "Patrick Cassidy" <pat@xxxxxxxxx>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2014 09:18:52 -0500
Message-id: <05e401cf27fd$5d6bd1b0$18437510$@micra.com>
Anatoly -
    Do we have access to the code of the application(s) that currently uses
schema.org?
   Or are you are referring to some newly generated application?     (01)

Pat    (02)

Patrick Cassidy
MICRA Inc.
cassidy@xxxxxxxxx
1-908-561-3416    (03)


 >-----Original Message-----
 >From: ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ontology-
 >summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Anatoly Levenchuk
 >Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 3:07 AM
 >To: 'Ontology Summit 2014 discussion'
 >Subject: Re: [ontology-summit] Schema.org and COSMO
 >
 >Patrick,
 >It sound as a possible good Hackathon project to me. Do you want to try it
in
 >Hackathon form to begin with?
 >
 >Best regards,
 >Anatoly
 >
 >> -----Original Message-----
 >> From: ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ontology-
 >> summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Patrick Cassidy
 >> Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 10:34 AM
 >> To: 'Ontology Summit 2014 discussion'
 >> Subject: [ontology-summit] Schema.org and COSMO
 >>
 >> A Response to John Sowa, renamed from the thread "Are there primitive
 >> concepts":
 >> [JS]  > If you want people to pay more attention to the COSMO
 >> ontology,
 >you
 >> > might show how COSMO terms can improve the Schema.org definitions.
 >>  >
 >>    I am willing to work with anyone who is implementing an ontology in
 >some
 >> practical application, provided that we can find a way to test
 >> proposed improvements and use some objective metric to decide whether
 >> the application does in fact work better.
 >>
 >>    I took a look at the OWL version of the schema.org ontology, and
 >although
 >> there are reasonable (and sketchy) structures within the hierachy,
 >> there appear to be significant problems from a logical perspective.
 >> Just one
 >> example:
 >>
 >>   There is a class  'CreativeWork'  ("The most generic kind of
 >> creative
 >work,
 >> including books, movies, photographs, software programs, etc.") with a
 >> subtype (via "MediaObject") of 'AudioObject' (An audio file.).  OK so
far.
 >>   *BUT* there is also a relation 'audio' which relates 'CreativeWork'
 >> as domain to 'AudioObject' as range.
 >> Since the Class  'AudioObject' is already a subclass of   'CreativeWork'
,
 >> this relation does not function as a typical relation should, to
 >> relate
 >two or
 >> more entities in a manner to add some meaning.  Instances of the class
 >> 'AudioObject' are already thus identified as audio objects, and do not
 >need
 >> the 'audio' relation to add more information.   It's hard to see why
that
 >> relation would be at all useful.
 >> Perhaps the ontologist had in mind that a 'CreativeWork' would be an
 >> abstract class and  'AudioObject' is a physical object that is a
 >representation
 >> of an 'AudioObject' that can be played on an audio device.
 >> But that is not what the ontology says.  In fact, I can't find any
 >distinction
 >> between a 'CreativeWork' (which, if it is to be a named individual
 >> such as "Star Wars" must be abstract with multiple physical
 >> embodiments) and the physical embodiments themselves, such as tapes,
 >> DVDs, books, still images, movie film strips, or computer files.  If
 >> there
 >is no
 >> distinction, then there is no obvious way to relate the many different
 >physical
 >> exemplars of a creative work to each other.
 >>
 >>  I will be happy to suggest alternatives that make more sense (to me)
 >> logically, but that is only one of what may be many issues.
 >>
 >> I will be happy to discuss such issues with the developers of
 >> schema.org,
 >**or
 >> any other ontology**, but unless someone in the developing group
 >> actually suggests some specific way I can be of help, and has an
 >> application to
 >provide
 >> a metric of utility, I would not take the initiative, but should
 >> continue working on the COSMO itself for the immediate future.  There
 >> are still refinements that need to be made before I would want to use
 >> it in a
 >complex
 >> application like Natural Language, one of my primary goals.  COSMO as
 >> is may be adequate for less complex applications.
 >>
 >> Pat
 >>
 >>
 >> Patrick Cassidy
 >> MICRA Inc.
 >> cassidy@xxxxxxxxx
 >> 1-908-561-3416
 >>
 >>
 >>  >-----Original Message-----
 >>  >From: ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ontology-
 >> >summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of John F Sowa
 >>  >Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 11:17 PM
 >>  >To: ontology-summit@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 >>  >Subject: Re: [ontology-summit] Are there primitive concepts?
 >>  >
 >>  >Pat and Andrea,
 >>  >
 >>  >PC
 >>  >> I think we can agree that there will be newly discovered aspects
 >> of
 >>>
 >> reality that change our perceptions of what now seem to be primitive
 >> >> concepts.  So the inventory of "primitives" may change over time.
 >>  >
 >>  >That depends on what you mean by change.  If you select something
 >> like the  >Longman's set of defining terms, then they can be
 >> relatively stable
 >>  >-- but only because their meaning is very loosely defined.
 >>  >
 >>  >Andrea stated that point quite clearly:
 >>  >
 >>  >AW
 >>  >> I was advocating under-specifying related (but not fundamental)
 >> >> concepts  in your modules (such as the Location concept in the
 >> Person  >> ontology example).  Then combine modules that "complete"
 >> the  >> under- specified concepts - where  the modules that you
 >> include are  >>
 >consistent
 >> with your use cases and micro-theories ...
 >>  >
 >>  >The Schema.org terms are a large and growing set of useful but
 >> >underspecified terms.  Right now, those terms are defined by English
 >texts
 >> >that resemble OWL comments more than formal definitions.
 >>  >
 >>  >If you want people to pay more attention to the COSMO ontology, you
 >> you
 >> >might show how COSMO terms can improve the Schema.org definitions.
 >>  >
 >>  >John
 >>  >
 >>
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