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Re: [ontolog-forum] Person, Boy, Man

To: "[ontolog-forum]" <ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
From: "doug foxvog" <doug@xxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2014 14:59:22 -0500
Message-id: <68a71737ca6997c83cce8f37aad71354.squirrel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
On Wed, February 12, 2014 13:21, John McClure wrote:
> I wouldn't say a female (an adjective) is a person (noun).    (01)

The word "female" is both an adjective and a noun.    (02)

Female people (persons) are people/persons.    (03)

Female plants, female non-human animals, and female organism parts are
not people/persons.    (04)

> Neither female nor male is a subtype of person.
> I argue there are obvious guidelines relating grammatical stuff to
> ontology stuff.
> For instance, adjective-things are never subtypes of noun-things.    (05)

Ontologies don't need to deal with words and parts of speech.
The concept of adjective-things and noun-things is not useful
in general for ontologies.  The ways a language uses terms for
various concepts can be informative, of course.    (06)

-- doug f    (07)



> On 2/12/2014 5:28 AM, Matthew West wrote:
>> 2. "A female is a person". This is a subtype relation, and should more
>> fully
>> be stated "Each female is also a person", or "female is a subtype of
>> person".
>
> On 2/12/2014 5:28 AM, Matthew West wrote:
>> Dear Patrick,
>>
>> Up to now I have assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that a "time slice" of
>> something refers to a time slice of an individual.
>> [MW>] That is correct.
>> But "man" and "boy"
>> are classes, not individuals, and I need clarification from the experts
>> as
>> to whether a "time slice" can really be a class?  In what formalism is
>> that
>> not possible?
>> [MW>] Well individual is also a class, man and boy are just classes
>> whose
>> members are timeslices of some person.
>>
>> If an ontology is to be used in Natural Language Processing (a critical
>> application, IMHO), then it should diverge from linguistic usage only
>> where
>> necessary.  I agree that language has some aspects that do not translate
>> well into the logical format of ontologies, but the subclass relation of
>> "boy" to "person" seems very well established in ordinary usage, and if
>> any
>> ontology formalism cannot represent that relation, I do not see much of
>> a
>> future for that formalism.
>> [MW>] We say that a man is a person, but this is very ambiguous. There
>> are
>> at least three interpretations of "is a" and we usually leave the
>> distinguishing pieces out:
>>
>> 1. "Matthew is a person". This is a classification relation, and should
>> more
>> fully be stated "Matthew is an instance of person."
>> 2. "A female is a person". This is a subtype relation, and should more
>> fully
>> be stated "Each female is also a person", or "female is a subtype of
>> person".
>> 3. "A boy is a person". This is a temporal part relation and should more
>> fully be stated "Each boy is a state (or stage, or part of the life) of
>> a
>> person".
>>
>> One of the problems with language is that we leave out as much context
>> as we
>> think we can get away with, and sometimes find we have left out too
>> much.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Matthew West
>> Information  Junction
>> Mobile: +44 750 3385279
>> Skype: dr.matthew.west
>> matthew.west@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> http://www.informationjunction.co.uk/
>> https://www.matthew-west.org.uk/
>> This email originates from Information Junction Ltd. Registered in
>> England
>> and Wales No. 6632177.
>> Registered office: 8 Ennismore Close, Letchworth Garden City,
>> Hertfordshire,
>> SG6 2SU.
>>
>>
>>
>> Pat
>>
>> Patrick Cassidy
>> MICRA Inc.
>> cassidy@xxxxxxxxx
>> 1-908-561-3416
>>
>>
>>   >-----Original Message-----
>>   >From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ontolog-forum-
>>> bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of doug foxvog
>>   >Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 4:49 PM
>>   >To: [ontolog-forum]
>>   >Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] Person, Boy, Man  >  >On Tue, February
>> 11,
>> 2014 15:13, Ali H wrote:
>>   >> On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 2:48 PM, John McClure  >>
>> <jmcclure@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>   >
>>   >>>  Take a Person for example, with subclasses Boy and Man.
>>   >*[MW] The main
>>   >>>> problem with this is that Boy and Man are not subtypes of person.
>>   >>>> For Boy and Man to be subtypes of Person, each Boy is a Person,
>> and
>>>>>> each Man is a (different) Person.
>>   >>>> What would be correct is that Boy and Man a subtypes of  >>>>
>> StateOfPerson, and that each StateOfPerson is a temporalPart of a  >>>>
>> Person.*  >  >This is forcing a 4D view on those who don't wish to use
>> it.
>>   >
>>   >Instead of claiming one model is (in)correct, it would be nicer to
>> say,
>> "In the  >4D model, non-rigid classes such as Boy and Man, are not
>> subtypes
>> of rigid  >classes such as Person.  A 4D model would consider Boy and
>> Man to
>> be  >subtypes of a non-rigid StateOfPerson, and ..."
>>   >
>>   >>> To most people, and dictionaries, Boy and Man are subtypes of
>> Person.
>>   >
>>   >The relation "subtype" means that any instance of the first thing
>> are
>>> instances of the second thing.  In 4D a Man or Boy is a time slice of a
>>> MalePerson.
>>   >For
>>   >someone using 3D(+1) at any time there is an instance of a Man or
>> Boy,
>> that  >instance is also an instance of Person.
>>   >
>>   >>> Second, should a KB contain both a Boy & Man resource about a
>> given
>>>>> individual, owl:sameAs would be used to indicate their equivalence
>>>>> >>>
>> otherwise, yes, they would be a different person, as they should be.
>>   >
>>   >If Man & Boy were defined as disjoint, then nothing could
>> simultaneously
>> be  >an instance of both.  But something could in one context be an
>> instance
>> of  >one and in another context be an instance of the other.
>>   >
>>   >> First, you might want to take a look at the Ontoclean paper
>> [1],[2].
>>   >> In this view, Boy is not Rigid, and hence not recommended to be  >>
>> related to a Person via a subtype relationship.
>>   >
>>   >All this means is that Ontoclean promotes a 4D view.  If this is
>> merely a
>>> recommendation it does not require 4D.
>>   >
>>   >>> Third, StateofPerson is a wholly artificial term, lacking both
>> >>>
>> practical merit and semantic credibility. Fourth, this is a fine  >>>
>> example of ontologists' implicit saintliness modelling 'concepts' not
>>> 'language'.
>>   >
>>   >> Secondly, from your posts to this forum, this (the privileging or
>> >>
>> equating ontology to language) seems to be a major point of departure
>> >>
>> from your perspective and (I suspect) many ontologists on the list.
>>   >
>>   >I agree.  Language can inform ontologies but they are quite
>> different.
>>   >
>>   >If computer ontologies were originated by speakers of a language that
>>> differentiates "is currently" from "is necessarily", that distinction
>>> would
>> be  >part of the ontology language.  There would be classes which
>> instances
>> are  >necessarily members of, and classes which instances may be members
>> of
>> for  >part of their existence (of which subclasses would be necessarily
>>   >(non)
>>   >initial, necessarily (non) final, and those which an instance can
>> join and
>> leave  >multiple times).  It would also probably have resulted in three
>> or
>> more  >subclass/subtype relations: one between rigid classes, one
>> between
>> non-  >rigid and rigid classes, and one (or more) between non-rigid
>> classes.
>>   >
>>   >-- doug
>>   >
>>   >> Langauge and
>>   >> ontology *are not* the same things. While language may contain many
>>  >>
>> clues as to how ontologically model something, it is only that - a clue.
>>   >> ...
>>   >
>>   >> I suspect the majority of ontologists have come to at least the  >>
>> following conclusions:
>>   >>
>>   >>    1. Ontology != Language
>>   >>    2. There are serious limits to linguistic clues in building an
>>   >> ontology ...
>>   >
>>   >> Best,
>>   >> Ali
>>   >>
>>   >
>>   >
>>   >
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