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Re: [ontolog-forum] Person, Boy, Man

To: <doug@xxxxxxxxxx>, "'[ontolog-forum] '" <ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
From: "Patrick Cassidy" <pat@xxxxxxxxx>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 23:12:52 -0500
Message-id: <055901cf27a8$b2fd08b0$18f71a10$@micra.com>
Up to now I have assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that a "time slice" of
something refers to a time slice of an individual.      But "man" and "boy"
are classes, not individuals, and I need clarification from the experts as
to whether a "time slice" can really be a class?  In what formalism is that
not possible?    (01)

If an ontology is to be used in Natural Language Processing (a critical
application, IMHO), then it should diverge from linguistic usage only where
necessary.  I agree that language has some aspects that do not translate
well into the logical format of ontologies, but the subclass relation of
"boy" to "person" seems very well established in ordinary usage, and if any
ontology formalism cannot represent that relation, I do not see much of a
future for that formalism.    (02)

Pat    (03)

Patrick Cassidy
1-908-561-3416    (04)

 >-----Original Message-----
 >From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ontolog-forum-
 >bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of doug foxvog
 >Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 4:49 PM
 >To: [ontolog-forum]
 >Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] Person, Boy, Man
 >On Tue, February 11, 2014 15:13, Ali H wrote:
 >> On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 2:48 PM, John McClure
 >> <jmcclure@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>wrote:
 >>>  Take a Person for example, with subclasses Boy and Man.
 >*[MW] The main
 >>>> problem with this is that Boy and Man are not subtypes of person.
 >>>> For Boy and Man to be subtypes of Person, each Boy is a Person, and
 >>>> each Man is a (different) Person.
 >>>> What would be correct is that Boy and Man a subtypes of
 >>>> StateOfPerson, and that each StateOfPerson is a temporalPart of a
 >>>> Person.*
 >This is forcing a 4D view on those who don't wish to use it.
 >Instead of claiming one model is (in)correct, it would be nicer to say,
"In the
 >4D model, non-rigid classes such as Boy and Man, are not subtypes of rigid
 >classes such as Person.  A 4D model would consider Boy and Man to be
 >subtypes of a non-rigid StateOfPerson, and ..."
 >>> To most people, and dictionaries, Boy and Man are subtypes of Person.
 >The relation "subtype" means that any instance of the first thing  are
 >instances of the second thing.  In 4D a Man or Boy is a time slice of a
 >someone using 3D(+1) at any time there is an instance of a Man or Boy,
 >instance is also an instance of Person.
 >>> Second, should a KB contain both a Boy & Man resource about a given
 >>> individual, owl:sameAs would be used to indicate their equivalence
 >>> otherwise, yes, they would be a different person, as they should be.
 >If Man & Boy were defined as disjoint, then nothing could simultaneously
 >an instance of both.  But something could in one context be an instance of
 >one and in another context be an instance of the other.
 >> First, you might want to take a look at the Ontoclean paper [1],[2].
 >> In this view, Boy is not Rigid, and hence not recommended to be
 >> related to a Person via a subtype relationship.
 >All this means is that Ontoclean promotes a 4D view.  If this is merely a
 >recommendation it does not require 4D.
 >>> Third, StateofPerson is a wholly artificial term, lacking both
 >>> practical merit and semantic credibility. Fourth, this is a fine
 >>> example of ontologists' implicit saintliness modelling 'concepts' not
 >> Secondly, from your posts to this forum, this (the privileging or
 >> equating ontology to language) seems to be a major point of departure
 >> from your perspective and (I suspect) many ontologists on the list.
 >I agree.  Language can inform ontologies but they are quite different.
 >If computer ontologies were originated by speakers of a language that
 >differentiates "is currently" from "is necessarily", that distinction
would be
 >part of the ontology language.  There would be classes which instances are
 >necessarily members of, and classes which instances may be members of for
 >part of their existence (of which subclasses would be necessarily
 >initial, necessarily (non) final, and those which an instance can join and
 >multiple times).  It would also probably have resulted in three or more
 >subclass/subtype relations: one between rigid classes, one between non-
 >rigid and rigid classes, and one (or more) between non-rigid classes.
 >-- doug
 >> Langauge and
 >> ontology *are not* the same things. While language may contain many
 >> clues as to how ontologically model something, it is only that - a clue.
 >> ...
 >> I suspect the majority of ontologists have come to at least the
 >> following conclusions:
 >>    1. Ontology != Language
 >>    2. There are serious limits to linguistic clues in building an
 >> ontology ...
 >> Best,
 >> Ali
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 >    (05)

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