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Re: [ontolog-forum] fitness of XML for ontology(WAS: [ontology-summit] T

To: "[ontolog-forum]" <ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
From: Duane Nickull <duane@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2014 11:50:44 -0800
Message-id: <CF168443.2C5E9D%duane@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To further this, even with the Web Services Architecture and the SOA
Reference Model, we were careful to avoid any semantics that may suggest
client server or any other architectural paradigm.    (01)

Technoracle Advanced Systems Inc.
Consulting and Contracting; Proven Results!
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t.  @duanenickull    (02)

On 2014-02-04 11:42 AM, "Rich Cooper" <rich@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:    (03)

>True, XML is a message type, and its use is not
>necessarily always client/server or N-tier.  But
>modern message handling methods in significantly
>large distributed systems tends to be either
>client/server or N-tier for other reasons, such as
>ability to isolate each interchange for debug and
>testing purposes. 
>Essentially, nearly every business application of
>size is client/server or N-tier because those are
>the most practical architectures in today's
>But you are exactly correct; XML has nothing to do
>with the method of file exchange.
>Rich Cooper
>Rich AT EnglishLogicKernel DOT com
>9 4 9 \ 5 2 5 - 5 7 1 2
>-----Original Message-----
>From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>[mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
>Behalf Of Duane Nickull
>Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 9:23 AM
>To: [ontolog-forum]
>Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] fitness of XML for
>ontology(WAS: [ontology-summit] The tools are not
>the problem (yet))
>An XML parser has nothing to do with client server
>architecture nor is
>such implied. It *can* be used within CS
>architectures but there is no
>dependence on such.  XML parsing also does not
>require that a network is
>present of any type.
>Parsing is simply "reading" without understanding.
>The only thing that
>matters is that the XML is well formed or, in the
>case of a schema or DTD
>validation required, is compliant with the rules
>expressed in such.  Where
>or why the XML is being parsed is simply
>orthogonal to the parsing.
>I know it has a very large following as I have
>personally been involved
>since almost day one ;-)
>Unfortunately, it is relatively easy to develop
>one's own XML based
>dialect and this was a relatively popular activity
>through much of the
>late 1990's and early 2000's.  For some reason, a
>lot of the people
>developing the XML dialects wanted others to see
>their work.
>XML and JSON are both here to stay.
>If anyone wants to know how they are parsed and
>how DOM structures are
>built, I am happy to donate a couple of hours to
>be a guest on one of the
>weekly calls to explain this so we are all on the
>same page.
>Best wishes,
>Technoracle Advanced Systems Inc.
>Consulting and Contracting; Proven Results!
>i.  Neo4J, PDF, Java, LiveCycle ES, Flex, AIR, CQ5
>& Mobile
>b. http://technoracle.blogspot.com
>t.  @duanenickull
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>On 2014-02-03 9:50 PM, "Rich Cooper"
><rich@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>Dear John, Duane and Paul,
>>XML is a standard with a VERY large following.
>>is often used for event processing, and for
>>interchange of highly structured data between
>>diverse computers and diverse applications.  For
>>that reason, it is relatively easy for a
>>standardized XML form to be interchanged.  But it
>>is very difficult to develop your own standard
>>form; at least it is very difficult compared to
>>Languages such as Delphi have XML parser
>>components built into the IDE.  There are two
>>kinds of such XML parsers which are both free to
>>the average programmer with an IDE.  One
>>type takes its syntax from a file containing a
>>specification of the objects, attributes and
>>domains of a defined standard, while the other
>>kind takes it syntax from nothing whatsoever, and
>>just parses the XML into objects, attributes, and
>>domain values.  
>>Event processing is typically accomplished by the
>>client sending a request in XML, and the server
>>responding with the XML binding to values
>>to the event semantics.  A sequence of such
>>messages makes up the entire event stream.
>>For example, the title of real estate properties
>>tends to be expressed in an awkward textual
>>description of the meets and bounds of the
>>property.  That text is mostly unstructured, but
>>other objects and attributes and values of the
>>same XML message can be simple scalars designed
>>help process the event messages.
>>For the defined standards (or even for your
>>particularly defined application even if it is
>>unique), the parser does lots of error checking
>>and provides exceptions wherever the standard is
>>not met, either by omission or by commission.
>>That makes it valuable in applications where such
>>errors are made too frequently.  Typically that
>>for programmer-generated forms that go through
>>several iterations until the programmers find a
>>deterministic path through the standard.
>>The other kind, where the programmer defines a
>>unique "standard" used only by that server and
>>that client in a specific application, is less
>>useful because it lacks such detailed error
>>checking.  However, it still provides the
>>of XML forms meant to convey the proper semantic
>>information in an easily harnessed manner.
>>XML is here to stay, IMHO, because it fills the
>>void left by lack of a truly semantic vehicle for
>>transmission of messages.  For now, XML is the
>>best choice, though it could certainly use
>>improvement over time.
>>Also, IMHO, English (or other natural language)
>>the best vehicle for semantic transmission, but
>>have yet to perfect the mechanics of it.
>>Rich Cooper
>>Rich AT EnglishLogicKernel DOT com
>>9 4 9 \ 5 2 5 - 5 7 1 2
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>Behalf Of Paul Tyson
>>Sent: Monday, February 03, 2014 9:00 PM
>>To: [ontolog-forum]
>>Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] fitness of XML for
>>ontology(WAS: [ontology-summit] The tools are not
>>the problem (yet))
>>On Mon, 2014-02-03 at 09:55 -0800, Duane Nickull
>>> JSON is a generalized markup.  I can use the
>>values to describe any
>>> other domain.
>>Sure you can. Like Humpty-Dumpty, you can pay any
>>string of characters
>>extra to do whatever you want it to do. But you
>>typically have to pay
>>less for them in XML because the XML parser does
>>lot of the tedious
>>work for you. Take for example the class of
>>well-paid strings known in
>>SGML as "generic identifiers", or in XML simply
>>"element names". They
>>are instantly recognized by the XML parser as
>>markup, whereas a key
>>value in JSON is just another key value until the
>>programmer writes some
>>code to handle it otherwise.
>>The "generalized" part of generalized markup
>>applies to grammar as well.
>>You can construct your own markup tokens at will
>>without having to
>>reconfigure the parser. If your application (or
>>development process)
>>requires validation of the markup, it falls out
>>the box with XML. Not
>>so with JSON.
>>> XMl has nothing to do with semantics.
>>I'm not sure what you mean here, but I think I
>>agree, and I call it
>>goodness. The purpose of a markup language is
>>first off to separate one
>>string of characters from another, and secondly
>>guide the parser in
>>putting the various chunks in different buckets
>>the application can
>>do something useful with them. I don't know in
>>what sense "semantics" is
>>needed or wanted for these operations.
>>> XML has the ability to make data portable and
>>can be used to transfer
>>> ontological or semantic models, or fragments
>>thereof, between applications.
>>Understated but accurate.
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