On Sun, 2013-09-15 at 18:02 -0400, Gary Berg-Cross wrote:
> P
> aul
>
>
> >
> Documents, being packages of differences, can be decomposed into
> particles of significance related in particular ways.
> >
> RDF is a good way to represent, record, and exchange particles of
> significance that are related in particular ways.
>
> There are many potential problems in the this formulation of package
> decomposition and its representation in particular ways. (01)
I would say "opportunities" instead of "problems". Did you mean "gaps"
or "insufficiencies"--and if so, any in particular? (02)
>
>
> One must understand how a "whole" document is composed with relations
> from its various parts and how a who;e may emerge from related parts.
If you mean by that, "document design", I agree. There's no technology
to replace thinking. As for the mechanics of composing and delivering
documents, the XML technology stack provides almost everything needed. (03)
Regards,
--Paul
>
>
>
>
>
> Gary Berg-Cross, Ph.D.
> gbergcross@xxxxxxxxx
> http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?GaryBergCross
> NSF INTEROP Project
> http://www.nsf.gov/awardsearch/showAward.do?AwardNumber=0955816
> SOCoP Executive Secretary
> Knowledge Strategies
> Potomac, MD
> 240-426-0770
>
>
> On Sun, Sep 15, 2013 at 9:11 AM, Paul Tyson <phtyson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> wrote:
> I like Kingsley's "data-de-silo-fication" theme. (In fact, I'm
> soon to
> give an internal tech talk called "Down With Silos! How linked
> data is
> beautifying the information landscape").
>
> I want to contribute a different narrative, orthogonal to the
> engineering discussion in this thread, but leading I think to
> the same
> place Kingsley is heading. For brevity I'll keep it to bullet
> points.
>
> 1. Enterprises depend for their success on people in the
> enterprise
> doing the right thing at the right time.
> 2. People only know what is the right thing and how to do it
> by getting
> good information in the form most useful to them at the time
> they need
> it.
> 3. They get the information they need primarily from
> "documents", taken
> in the very general sense as some bounded, structured,
> purposeful
> package of distinctions (glyphs, lines, colors, shapes,
> texture, sound,
> image, etc.).
> 4. Documents, being packages of differences, can be decomposed
> into
> particles of significance related in particular ways.
> 5. RDF is a good way to represent, record, and exchange
> particles of
> significance that are related in particular ways. Along with
> XML, HTML,
> HTTP, and related W3C standards, we have a complete suite of
> tools for
> delivering documents containing the information needed to the
> people who
> need it to act for the success of the enterprise.
>
> There should be no dispute about RDBMS as an efficient storage
> and
> retrieval machinery for relational data. I appreciate hearing
> about the
> engineering and theoretical issues about such systems.
> However, those
> issues are related to the problems of getting information to
> people at
> the point of need only to the extent that system designers
> choose to
> couple data persistence components to data delivery
> mechanisms. One of
> the hallmarks of "legacy" systems is the unfortunate choice to
> closely
> couple these components.
>
> I expect the discussion in this forum to focus on how to
> deliver
> information to a human in the way that best meets his or her
> constantly
> changing and not entirely predictable needs. Whether the data
> is
> persisted on disk or papyrus, in Elbonian, SQL, NoSQL, or
> Linear B, may
> be of great concern to the designers and engineers tasked with
> supporting the information needs of an enterprise. But it
> should be
> immaterial to discussions about what happens directly on each
> side of
> the computer screen: that is, how documents are composed for
> display,
> and how they are interpreted by the human on the other side of
> the
> screen.
>
> Those of us who focus on the 2-sides-of-the-screen problem
> domain have
> found the W3C basic and semantic web technology stacks of
> inestimable
> value.
>
> Regards,
> --Paul
>
> On Fri, 2013-09-13 at 10:07 -0400, Kingsley Idehen wrote:
> > On 9/13/13 9:33 AM, Michael Brunnbauer wrote:
> >
> > > Hello Kingsley,
> > >
> > > On Fri, Sep 13, 2013 at 08:37:01AM -0400, Kingsley Idehen
> wrote:
> > > > > I agree wholeheartedly. RDF and SPARQL make data
> integration easier
> > > > > (without
> > > > > solving the fundamental issues of course).
> > > > What is the fundamental issue, as you see it?
> > >
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterogeneous_database_system#Problems_of_heterogeneous_database_integration
> > ## In Turtle, for sake of clarity re, my world-view ##
> >
> >
>
><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterogeneous_database_system#Problems_of_heterogeneous_database_integration>
> > <#myLabel> "Data-de-silo-fication" ;
> > <#sameAs> <#HeterogeneousDataFederation>,
> <#DataVirtualization>,
> > <#DataSpaces>, <#MasterDataManagement> ;
> > <#comment> """This problem covers data disparity issues that
> include:
> > shape, location, and relation semantics (or lack
> thereof)""" .
> >
> > ## Turtle End ##
> >
> > So I assume we are in agreement re., the problem?
> >
> > >
> > >
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-lod/2013Jun/0458.html
> > >
> > > > I see the fundamental issue (or pain point) being
> data-de-silo-fication.
> > > RDF is nice for Extract Transform Load. The problems start
> if you want to
> > > change data.
> >
> > Change sensitivity is handled via the use of Linked Data
> Views over
> > disparate data sources. This is what R2RML facilitates
> albeit rarely
> > mentioned, sadly.
> >
> > Views can be transient, materialized, or a configurable mix
> of both.
> > That's certainly the case re. Virtuoso i.e., make a change
> in its SQL
> > DBMS (or a remote ODBC or JDBC accessible DBMS) and they are
> reflected
> > in all your SPARQL queries and Linked Data URI lookups. The
> same even
> > applies to RESTful or SOA services that are attached to
> Virtuoso (we
> > cover 100+ protocols and formats).
> >
> > We have Replication (Snapshot and Transactional) and HTTP
> (including
> > cache invalidation) baked into Virtuoso.
> >
> > >
> > > > > But they are a bad option for data
> > > > > storage because maintaining consistency is so
> difficult (think about
> > > > > deleting
> > > > > a row or transactions).
> > > > I don't know what that really means.
> > > Suppose you have an App with user registration. If you
> store the user data
> > > in a triple store, deleting a user with SPARQL becomes
> difficult.
> >
> > That doesn't apply to every triplestore. That doesn't apply
> to
> > Virtuoso. We even have large customer running OLTP like
> workflows with
> > something like 40 million named graphs. BTW -- as part of
> the
> > workflow, Virtuoso has to factor in deltas such that it
> doesn't
> > perform wholesale named graph deletions etc.
> >
> > > Removing
> > > a single triple is not enough. Storing the user in a named
> graph may help but
> > > probably creates other problems and definitely makes
> querying a lot more
> > > complicated.
> > >
> > > What about SPARQL transactions ? Starting a transaction,
> reading and updating,
> > > commiting the transaction.
> >
> > We are a full blown ACID DBMS. See our benchmark reports.
> These simply
> > aren't new issues since we have a hybrid DBMS.
> >
> > > Is there a triple store that supports this with
> > > all the fidelity of modern RDB systems ?
> >
> > Yes. It's called Virtuoso !
> >
> > >
> > > > I say that because we simply don't have that problem in
> our hybrid DBMS.
> > > I don't know what that really means. Can I modify data
> with SPARQL *and* SQL
> > > in your DBMS ? If yes, how does that work ?
> >
> > Of course you can. We support SPARQL 1.1 Update. We are
> SQL-99
> > compliant. We do ACID. We have serious customers doing OLTP
> like stuff
> > using RDF or SQL aspects of Virtuoso. [1][2][3][4]
> >
> > Links:
> >
> > 1. http://bit.ly/ZOCmaD -- shows we even have the
> performance
> > difference between SPARQL and SQL down to insignificant
> levels via
> > Star Schema Benchmark Report
> > 2. http://bit.ly/10pvAbF -- blog post about this effort
> > 3. http://bit.ly/Yf5etP -- Berlin SPARQL Benchmark Report
> (note: this
> > particular benchmark is SQL relational DBMS oriented)
> > 4. http://bit.ly/14ULX2F -- 150 Billion triples scale report
> > 5. http://bit.ly/RtdGjA -- CoRelational DBMS Concepts post
> that
> > includes live links to R2RML Views built atop SQL data
> > 6. http://bit.ly/13fnIbr -- example of R2RML views atop an
> Oracle DBMS
> > hooked into Virtuoso via ODBC .
> >
> >
> > Kingsley
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Michael Brunnbauer
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
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> >
> > --
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Kingsley Idehen
> > Founder & CEO
> > OpenLink Software
> > Company Web: http://www.openlinksw.com
> > Personal Weblog: http://www.openlinksw.com/blog/~kidehen
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> >
> >
> >
> >
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