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Re: [ontolog-forum] Dennett on the Darwinism of Memes

To: "[ontolog-forum] " <ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
From: Steven Ericsson-Zenith <steven@xxxxxxx>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 11:54:40 -0700
Message-id: <C56FA0CD-1F0D-4CD6-BBC8-362B43995E75@xxxxxxx>

In fact Pavithra appears to refer to the original theory of evolution due to 
Jean Baptiste de Lamarck, acknowledged by Darwin, and known in the French 
speaking world as the originator of the theory of evolution. In his theory he 
describes evolution according to repeated beneficial usage - and the Giraffe 
was used as the well-known case.    (01)

When I did my doctorate in France my colleagues, on walking through the garden 
at the Paris Zoo, were always very keen to point out to me Lamarck's statue 
that announces him as the father of the theory of evolution.    (02)

Darwin's theory of evolution is a theory of natural selection, a really quite 
different version of evolutionary theory, but the French certainly have a case 
for Lamarck in the sense that his was indeed the first to consider a theory of 
evolution a few decades before Darwin. Darwin's theory is not reliant upon 
mutation exactly but natural variation by  sexual reproduction, selection 
occurs against this entirely normal variation in a changing environment.    (03)

Regards,
Steven     (04)

--
        Dr. Steven Ericsson-Zenith
        Institute for Advanced Science & Engineering
        http://iase.info    (05)





On Apr 10, 2013, at 1:54 AM, MAXWELL GILLMORE <maxwellrgillmore@xxxxxxxxx> 
wrote:    (06)

> I must correct some points you made when  comparing memes to genes 
>        the stretching did not lead to mutation,  a mutation  lead to some 
>giraffe having better ability to reach higher leaves and therefore gave it an 
>advantage in survival.   over millions of years longer necks meant  the gene 
>was favoured by natural selection
>        cross pollination of plants is NOT  contrary to Darwinian Evolution.  
>Animals cross-fertilise mandatarily
>        crossing between different species is genetically fatal  
>        grafting of plant species has nothing to do with sexual reproduction  
>(it is better compared to a heart transplant) 
> 
> A meme may be usefully  analagous to Darwinian selection but, at least for 
>the time being we have not found a direct genetic connection.  Nevertheless 
>memes are subject to selection.
> 
> On 10/04/2013, at 10:39 AM, Pavithra wrote:
> 
>> Hello,
>> 
>> Words are not things.  "Words" representation things if they are nouns.  
>memes are ideas that spreads from person to person?? 
>> 
>> Darwinism and theory of evolution explains how living organisms evolve over  
>few generations according to the needs/usage etc. According to him Giraffe has 
>long neck, because they keep stretching their neck to eat branches and 
>eventually it caused a genetic mutation to  aid survival -- a process known as 
>"natural selection." These beneficial mutations are passed on to the next 
>generation. 
>> 
>> Darwin does not take cross pollination ( for lack of better word)  of plants 
>and animals and between different species that happens in one generation and 
>produce offspring of  blended types  into consideration.   A Lion and Tiger 
>may have a Liger for a child.   You can actually cut a branch of one fruit 
>tree and put it  another fruit tree branch stub and tie it up and it may bear 
>the fruit of the first tree kind..  There is all sorts of intervention that 
>happens to change the way species of plants and animal world to evolve  into  
>something new and different not only by genetic mutation due to thousands of 
>years of  usage or need for survival but due to cross pollination.   I know 
>this is a thesis for genetic decoding not fiction.   
>> 
>> I still have to read the book listed below..
>> 
>> Pavithra    
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> From: John Bottoms <john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: [ontolog-forum] <ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 9, 2013 5:28 PM
>> Subject: [ontolog-forum] Dennett on the Darwinism of Memes
>> 
>> Daniel Dennett's next book will be out in a few weeks and I had the 
>> opportunity to hear him talk about how memes obey the tenets of Darwinism.
>> 
>> The title of his book is, "Intuition Pumps and Other Tools for Thinking".
>> (not available yet, 
>> http://www.amazon.com/Intuition-Pumps-Other-Tools-Thinking/dp/0393082067)
>> 
>> His argument starts by asking if words are things. Then he argues that 
>> if words are things then we should consider memes as things also. He 
>> goes on to illustrate that memes follow the basic three principles of 
>> Darwinism.
>> 
>> His arguments are compelling and I wonder where they belong in the grand 
>> ontologies of entities. Are memes a new construct, or do memes simply 
>> replicate a known construct?
>> 
>> -John Bottoms
>>  FirstStar Systems
>>  Concord, MA USA
>> 
>> 
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