On Apr 10, 2013, at 8:15 AM, Pavithra wrote: (01)
>
>
> John Bottoms:
> From a modeling perspective:
>
> · Languages are first level abstraction of real world
> · Languages are expression of the world, allows us to express and
>communicate past, present, future, real and imaginary, proven and unproven
>aspects of the world. (02)
But they are also in the actual world, and can be studied empirically like any
other phenomenon. (03)
> · Words are parts of a language.
> · Nouns are used to express “things” in English language. Things -
>as in entities. ( Not all words are things. For example, verbs are words,
>but not things) (04)
All words are things. Not all words *describe* things, maybe. (05)
> · Nouns are a subset of words.
> · Memes are ideas / concepts, real or imaginary, proven or unproven.
>
> Question is : do we need to model meme?? (06)
Who is "we" and what is being "modeled"? (07)
> My opinion : Concepts can be named with a name and modeled. At present we
>do not use the verbiage –“ meme” for it. Probably we can use the name “meme”
>in the future. (08)
My advice would be to only use the term if you have a pretty exact idea of what
it is you are talking about, and document that understanding as carefully as
you possibly can. (09)
>
> About Darwinism, Americans use the word Darwinism from a scientific
>evolution point of view vs theological, god made us, changed us ( mutation)
>etc. (010)
American scientists use the term the same way other scientists do. (011)
>
> Maxwell, & Dr. Steven.
> Thanks for summarizing my gibberish writing. ( It was not scientific feed
>back, it was more of a general discussion)
> There is natural evolution due to mutation and then there is human
>intervention for change. (012)
Until recently, the only intervention available was artificial *selection*,
which follows the natural process but amplifies the effects. (013)
> Grafting & genetic engineering are human intervention. My point was
>Darwinism did not include human intervention, or cross breeding among
>subspecies. (014)
Darwin certainly considered cross-breeding and also human intervention in
breeding (eg of dogs and farm animals, which he studied at great length: I
recommend reading his "Origin of Species", it is a very readable work.) He did
not, of course, consider genetic engineering, as genetics had not even been
formulated when he was writing. I suspect he would have been delighted and
fascinated to have known about genetics and DNA, but he did not have this
pleasure. (015)
> You mentioned that his theory includes cross breeding among subspecies?? (016)
If animals can breed and produce fertile offspring, they are (by definition)
the same species. (017)
>
> However the following is not totally proven in all cases and is open for
>speculation and there are ethical issues about genetic engineering. ( I don;t
>want to go there)
> • crossing between different species is genetically fatal ..
> Thanks,
> Pavithra
>
>
> From: John Bottoms <john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 6:20 AM
> Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] Dennett on the Darwinism of Memes
>
> Pavithra,
>
> I may not have remembered his wording correctly in the use of "word". Also,
>it is a difficulty of linguistics that "thing" often gets used when a better
>selection would be "entity". However, the audience understood the intent of
>the question. Words come and go and likewise memes come and go. They share
>some characteristics and there is a shoot-from-the-hip impulse to put them in
>a lexicon or dictionary.
>
> Another view might be that memes are types of propositions that need to be
>evaluated. They could be classified into "indeterminate" until they are
>evaluated. Dennett does recognize that memes are "good" or "bad", and I
>suppose we should accept that they can be resurrected. One theory I have is
>that the term "meme" applies to atomic entities that have particular
>attributes or properties that can be generalized or rationalized. If that is
>true then we should be able to build classifiers for memes. A question for
>exploration is whether that property can be understood in a way that makes
>sense or is useful.
>
> Your view of giraffe evolution is referred to as Lamarckian inheritance and
>it survives today only as a weakened theory.
>(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamarckism)
>
> -John Bottoms
> Concord, MA USA
> On 4/9/2013 8:39 PM, Pavithra wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> Words are not things. "Words" representation things if they are nouns.
>memes are ideas that spreads from person to person??
>>
>> Darwinism and theory of evolution explains how living organisms evolve over
>few generations according to the needs/usage etc. According to him Giraffe has
>long neck, because they keep stretching their neck to eat branches and
>eventually it caused a genetic mutation to aid survival -- a process known as
>"natural selection." These beneficial mutations are passed on to the next
>generation.
>>
>> Darwin does not take cross pollination ( for lack of better word) of
>plants and animals and between different species that happens in one
>generation and produce offspring of blended types into consideration. A
>Lion and Tiger may have a Liger for a child. You can actually cut a branch
>of one fruit tree and put it another fruit tree branch stub and tie it up and
>it may bear the fruit of the first tree kind.. There is all sorts of
>intervention that happens to change the way species of plants and animal world
>to evolve into something new and different not only by genetic mutation due
>to thousands of years of usage or need for survival but due to cross
>pollination. I know this is a thesis for genetic decoding not fiction.
>>
>> I still have to read the book listed below..
>>
>> Pavithra
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: John Bottoms <john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: [ontolog-forum] <ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 9, 2013 5:28 PM
>> Subject: [ontolog-forum] Dennett on the Darwinism of Memes
>>
>> Daniel Dennett's next book will be out in a few weeks and I had the
>> opportunity to hear him talk about how memes obey the tenets of Darwinism.
>>
>> The title of his book is, "Intuition Pumps and Other Tools for Thinking".
>> (not available yet,
>> http://www.amazon.com/Intuition-Pumps-Other-Tools-Thinking/dp/0393082067)
>>
>> His argument starts by asking if words are things. Then he argues that
>> if words are things then we should consider memes as things also. He
>> goes on to illustrate that memes follow the basic three principles of
>> Darwinism.
>>
>> His arguments are compelling and I wonder where they belong in the grand
>> ontologies of entities. Are memes a new construct, or do memes simply
>> replicate a known construct?
>>
>> -John Bottoms
>> FirstStar Systems
>> Concord, MA USA
>>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Message Archives: http://ontolog.cim3.net/forum/ontolog-forum/
> Config Subscr: http://ontolog.cim3.net/mailman/listinfo/ontolog-forum/
> Unsubscribe: mailto:ontolog-forum-leave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Shared Files: http://ontolog.cim3.net/file/
> Community Wiki: http://ontolog.cim3.net/wiki/
> To join: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?WikiHomePage#nid1J
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Message Archives: http://ontolog.cim3.net/forum/ontolog-forum/
> Config Subscr: http://ontolog.cim3.net/mailman/listinfo/ontolog-forum/
> Unsubscribe: mailto:ontolog-forum-leave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Shared Files: http://ontolog.cim3.net/file/
> Community Wiki: http://ontolog.cim3.net/wiki/
> To join: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?WikiHomePage#nid1J (018)
------------------------------------------------------------
IHMC (850)434 8903 or (650)494 3973
40 South Alcaniz St. (850)202 4416 office
Pensacola (850)202 4440 fax
FL 32502 (850)291 0667 mobile
phayesAT-SIGNihmc.us http://www.ihmc.us/users/phayes (019)
_________________________________________________________________
Message Archives: http://ontolog.cim3.net/forum/ontolog-forum/
Config Subscr: http://ontolog.cim3.net/mailman/listinfo/ontolog-forum/
Unsubscribe: mailto:ontolog-forum-leave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Shared Files: http://ontolog.cim3.net/file/
Community Wiki: http://ontolog.cim3.net/wiki/
To join: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?WikiHomePage#nid1J (020)
|