On Thu, June 14, 2012 20:01, Len Yabloko wrote:
> On Thursday, June 14, 2012 11:11 AM William Frank wrote: (01)
>>Every time these issues of the meaning and even existence of such things
>> as facts, truth, knowledge, etc. etc. arise in this forum,
>>it seems to me that John Sowa calmly and modestly bears witness for
>> reason. (02)
> With all due respect to John Sowa, he is not a standard bearer for reason.
> Nietzesche once said "... the are no facts, only interpretations". (03)
Two very different things. (04)
> ... But more important is the fact (05)
What kind of argument is it when one references an instance of
something to deny its existence? (06)
> that not statement can be false or true outside of
> the context. (07)
The discussion has switched from facts to statements. Facts are states
of the world (or properties of defined systems such as mathematics).
Statements are encodings whose meanings may be (intended to be)
facts. (08)
> In this sense context is more important then statement
> itself. Nothing was said on this thread about existence of facts or its
> meaning. These disagreements can only be adressed in a properly set up
> context. (09)
Context is very important for disambiguating the meaning of statements. (010)
>> But I continue to wonder at this, for my taste, all too common topic of
>> disagreement. I always thought, before joining, that the denial of the
>> existence of these things was known to all to be logically inconsistent,
>> as an application of the liar's paradox, so that whatever mysteries and
>> problems might lurk with respect to them, nobody at all who thought
>> carefully would be making these superficial, self-contradicting
>> assertions.
>
> There is nothing self-contradicting said so far, and I don't see any
> natural langauge statement as an assertion. (011)
Many NL statements are not assertions. But i'm not sure what definition
of "assertion" you are using when you fail to see *any* NL statement as
an assertion. Isn't "I don't see any natural language statement as an
assertion" an assertion? (012)
> That is perhaps the source of
> your confusion. Natural language has evolved in a context of cooperation
> that involves various forms of signaling. Some of it may be considered a
> communication of facts, again in properly setup context. (013)
Sure. (014)
> But other foms of signaling do not commmunicate facts. (015)
What bearing does the existence of forms of signaling that do not
communicate facts have on the existence of facts? If there were
no facts, wouldn't you claim that no form of signaling communicates
facts? (016)
> What fact is communicated by mating call? (017)
"I'm here and horny." (018)
> You can certainly set up a logial context using modal logic where
> this call will be an assertion of fact. But that is syntethic, not natural
> interpreation. (019)
It seems like a natural interpretation to me. "Here" is contextual when
set out in print, but in the wild, "here" is the location of the source of
the call -- not at all contextual. (020)
> I am not sure what you call an "application of liar's paradox". Can you
> elaborate? (021)
1) This statement is a lie. (022)
Is Statement #1 a lie? That's the paradox. (023)
-- doug foxvog (024)
> On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 11:00 PM, John F Sowa <sowa@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> Len,
>>
>>First, I'd like to emphasize that knowing *facts* has enormous
>>survivor values for every species, including humans. If an animal
>>knows where to find food, water, etc., that can make a difference
>>between life and death.
>>
>>> In nature cooperation is not about truth or facts (however defined ),
>>> but about playing games.
>>
>>First of all, there is nothing controversial about the word 'fact'.
>>If you want a definition, just look in a dictionary. If you type
>>"define fact" to Google, you get
>>
>> 1. A thing that is indisputably the case.
>> 2. Information used as evidence or as part of a report or news article.
>>
>>Definition #1 is the primary one. The second is derivative.
>>Other dictionaries will give you further fine points, but there
>>is nothing controversial or political about them.
>>
>>But there may be controversies about the facts in any particular
>>case, and finding the facts may lead to a lengthy investigation.
>>
>>> It shows that some strategies are seemingly wasting precious
>>> resources only to "impress" others.
>>
>>Not all facts have the same survival value. When you're starving,
>>it's more important to know where to get food than knowing
>>the capital of Wyoming.
>>
>>The same is true about impressing other individuals of the same
>>or different species. It can be essential for getting a mate,
>>getting a job, or avoiding being robbed or killed.
>>
>>> There may even be connection here to the language games.
>>
>>I agree with that point.
>>
>>John
>>
>>
>>
>>_________________________________________________________________
>>Message Archives: http://ontolog.cim3.net/forum/ontolog-forum/
>>Config Subscr: http://ontolog.cim3.net/mailman/listinfo/ontolog-forum/
>>Unsubscribe: mailto:ontolog-forum-leave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>Shared Files: http://ontolog.cim3.net/file/
>>Community Wiki: http://ontolog.cim3.net/wiki/
>>To join: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?WikiHomePage#nid1J
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> William Frank
>
> 413/376-8167
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Message Archives: http://ontolog.cim3.net/forum/ontolog-forum/
> Config Subscr: http://ontolog.cim3.net/mailman/listinfo/ontolog-forum/
> Unsubscribe: mailto:ontolog-forum-leave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Shared Files: http://ontolog.cim3.net/file/
> Community Wiki: http://ontolog.cim3.net/wiki/
> To join:
> http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?WikiHomePage#nid1J
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Message Archives: http://ontolog.cim3.net/forum/ontolog-forum/
> Config Subscr: http://ontolog.cim3.net/mailman/listinfo/ontolog-forum/
> Unsubscribe: mailto:ontolog-forum-leave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Shared Files: http://ontolog.cim3.net/file/
> Community Wiki: http://ontolog.cim3.net/wiki/
> To join: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?WikiHomePage#nid1J
>
> (025)
_________________________________________________________________
Message Archives: http://ontolog.cim3.net/forum/ontolog-forum/
Config Subscr: http://ontolog.cim3.net/mailman/listinfo/ontolog-forum/
Unsubscribe: mailto:ontolog-forum-leave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Shared Files: http://ontolog.cim3.net/file/
Community Wiki: http://ontolog.cim3.net/wiki/
To join: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?WikiHomePage#nid1J (026)
|