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Re: [ontolog-forum] intangibles (was RE: Why most classifications are fu

To: "[ontolog-forum] " <ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
From: Anders Tell <opensource@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 12:41:14 +0200
Message-id: <CF57E3E0-9468-437B-8651-8FA63F7E1332@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Chris P ,  John,    (01)


 John F. Sowa wrote:    (02)

> DF
>>> The intangibles that we are discussing are mental artifacts which
>>> are shared by multiple people.
> 
> The term "mental artifact" is another philosophical virus.
> Don't use it.  And most definitely avoid saying that two or more
> people could ever "share" anything mental.    (03)

Yes, an most important aspect.     (04)

> CP
>> So, if I understand correctly, when one person makes a promise to another,
>> you believe that this creates a (single) mental artefact - the promise -
>> that has temporal but not spatial extent and is shared by both people.
> 
> In Peirce's terminology, you would say that a written contract is
> a token of a sign type.  Whatever occurs in the brain when somebody
> thinks about the contract is another token of the same type -- but
> it might not be an exact replica of the written token.
> 
> When two people talk about the contract, each of them has a neural token
> in the brain.  Those tokens are physical, and there is no sharing of
> those tokens.  But each token can be a fairly accurate instance of the
> same type as the written token.    (05)

Agree.    (06)


> CP
>> When deciding on the architecture for one's ontology one can choose whether
>> to include intangibles or not.
>> Then one needs to motivate this choice.
>> In the case of intangibles/abstract object, the classical hurdle is
>> explaining*in principle*  how one can know something one cannot perceive in
>> any way at all.
>     (07)

Chris P.    (08)

Im not really sure all details debated here, so few comments and opinions 
intermixed    (09)

*  In legal terms both acts and state of mind are important. Neither can be 
omitted.    (010)

* An agreement occurs when the two tokens are aligned in the minds of two or 
more persons and the both believe that the other also know you know. 
A promise could be externalized (using tools such spoken sounds) through a 
Speech act ( from Scott A. Moore work on FLBC)    (011)

"promise (promise, swear, vow; also contract, bet, swear that, guarantee
that, guarantee x, surrender, invite) In uttering e, S promises H to A if S 
expresses:
1. the belief that his utterance obligates him to A,
2. the intention to A, and
3. the intention that H believe that Sís utterance obligates S to A and that S 
intends to A.
"    (012)

* A contract is often associated with propose-accept-reject ontop of an 
agreement. so what is discussed, an agreement, agreeing or written contracts? 
All three are different.    (013)

"assentive (accept, agree, assent, concur) In uttering e, S assents to the 
claim that P if S expresses:
1. the belief that P, as claimed by H (or as otherwise under discussion),
and
2. the intention (perhaps already fulfilled) that H believe that P."    (014)


> cp] Of course, trying to pin everything on the paper record is not a good
> strategy - and this is not what is being suggested.
> However, "trying to pin all such intangibles to some physical object" or
> more exactly, deciding whether to work with tangibles rather than
> intangibles is exactly the architectural choice one is faced with - and if
> the choice is made to work with tangibles, there are standard ways to
> proceed (i.e. in implementing the architectural choice).    (015)

* An oral agreement is valid event if there is not written (physical) record of 
the conversation. Even if one person dies many tries to honor their duties.    (016)

* In efficient legal system, written contracts has their additional values, 
such as a tool for memory recollection and in dispute resolution. Written 
languages tend to deteriorate slower than memories of spoken sounds/words. 
(unless one records them)    (017)


regards
/anders    (018)


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