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Re: [ontolog-forum] Quote for the day

To: "'[ontolog-forum] '" <ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
From: "Rich Cooper" <rich@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2011 12:21:10 -0800
Message-id: <20110104202114.0B61E138D79@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>

Agreed.  Its a certainty that there will always be forces in favor of more government to protect their privileges throughout time.  But SOME government is necessary, and too much is not QUITE as bad as having no way to record property ownership, protect holdings, or otherwise represent the vast citizenry capable of holding pitchforks and marching on the bastille.  So we Americans limp along, trying to reduce government temporarily to remove some of the squeezed feeling.  

 

Disaster happens when governments get too powerful, but only a few places (Somalia, Afghanistan, ..) suffer disasters from too little government.  

 

But enough on this subject, since the list is about ontology.  Government regulation of ontologies is not as desireable as private groups following their own commercial and protective interests.  The best standards have always been those that arose within the markets – look at SQL 92, which was a sloppy, but enormously commercially successful standard.  Ontologies will go the same way, IMHO. 

 

Remember how Ada – a beautiful and elegant systems building language for its time – was overcontrolled to the point that no company found it useful to build, maintain and grow that market.  Too much help. 

 

-Rich

 

Sincerely,

Rich Cooper

EnglishLogicKernel.com

Rich AT EnglishLogicKernel DOT com

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From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ron Wheeler
Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2011 11:35 AM
To: ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] Quote for the day

 

On 04/01/2011 1:49 PM, Rich Cooper wrote:

Hi Ron,

 

You wrote

 

... I think that there are opportunities now for some companies that have the vision to build useful tools that accelerate the process of

compliance to the new government reporting requirements that are coming out in response to terrorism, the financial crisis and by an increasing desire in the part of politicians on all sides in all jurisdictions to talk about reducing wasteful regulation while wanting to control everything and the expectation that the various government agencies will monitor everything and instantly see patterns and individual transactions that pose a threat to society.

 

Actually, I think the trend now is to get rid of government regulation because it has been inefficient, infeasible, incorrect and ineffective.  But then, governments have the guns to make their way heard if not listened to.  Only by getting back to the business and technical issues, and eliminating as much government interference as possible, will lead to economic growth and prosperity.  The government is the problem, not the solution, to most issues we have today. 

Yeah right. The only good government is the one that the rich and powerful have bought and paid for.
You may be right about the trend but it will lead to chaos and collapse of the financial system due to greed and outright dishonestly by people who are not accountable to anyone including those who put up the money.

Tight government regulation ( a near monopoly protected by extensive regulation) is all that protected Canada's financial system from the collapse of our principle trading partner's mortgage and financial markets. Our banks and mortgage companies could be just as greedy and foolish as our American cousins; we just don't let them.

On the other hand, I never saw a congress that passed less legislation than the previous one.
They talk about less regulation but they still want power and control. The US government grows at a pretty steady pace regardless of administrations.
They may favour certain sectors or behaviours that are different but in the end, they still want control because they know that they will be held accountable and they generally think that they know what the people want and what is best for the country.

I am not sure that the financial crisis will result in better legislation or more real accountability but I am pretty sure that it will result in more reporting requirements and probably more government agencies wanting information.
I see this as the biggest growth area for ontologists with the only challenge coming from heathcare which will also be government driven.


Ron
 


 

-Rich

 

Sincerely,

Rich Cooper

EnglishLogicKernel.com

Rich AT EnglishLogicKernel DOT com

9 4 9 \ 5 2 5 - 5 7 1 2

 

-----Original Message-----
From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ron Wheeler
Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2011 6:52 AM
To: ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] Quote for the day

 

On 03/01/2011 9:45 PM, John F. Sowa wrote:

> Ron and Pat,

> 

> People have been defining standard terminologies and specifications

> for many centuries before anybody taught them to use the "O" word.

> 

> RW:

>> I would think that local conformance concerns should be addressed by

>> extensions and processes around an internationally agreed ontology.

>> Having an unambiguous description of goods and services crossing borders

>> (customs, homeland security, environment, regulatory reporting, etc.)

>> would seem to provide a clear ROI for development of ontologies.

> Many *centuries* before computers were invented, governments and

> international standards bodies developed standards for navigation,

> geographical coordinates, time, units of measure, screw threads,

> wheat grains, chemical compounds, etc.  Note that the terms "Julian"

> and "Gregorian" for dates refer to Julius Caesar and Pope Gregory.

> 

> RW:

>> I would think that a universal description of a financial instrument

>> would facilitate international trading of that security.

> The Sumerians baked those financial instruments into clay tablets

> many millennia ago.  Their successors were doing international

> trade across the Silk Road from China to Europe and Africa over

> three millennia ago.  The Phoenicians invented the alphabet to

> keep track of all the goods they were shipping from port to

> port around the Mediterranean to the British Isles.

> 

> The modern definitions were established by the Italian bankers

> half a millennium ago.  Their successors were using international

> electronic funds transfer by telegraph for many decades before the

> Internet came along.

> 

> PC:

>> The point I think is worth considering is that, unless one actually

>> has a common vocabulary to describe one's models, there is no way

>> to tell that they are in fact different.

> I certainly agree -- and so would Julius Caesar, Pope Gregory, and

> lots of Sumerians, Phoenicians, and Renaissance bankers.

> 

> Before we try to sell them on the idea of using ontologies, we have

> to show them some advantage.  They know their business far better than

> we do, they've been running it successfully for a long time, and we

> need to show some clear value in this newfangled O-stuff.

> 

> PC:

>> This suggests that the primitive elements may focus on observable

>> phenomena, and perhaps also on mathematical or graphical primitives

>> that can serve to build the mental models people use.

> Look at the words 'suggests', 'may, and 'perhaps'.  That sounds far

> too speculative to convince people who have been keeping precise

> records about billions and trillions of dollars of commerce.

> 

> I really hope that the work on logic and ontology can succeed.

> But it has to do something better than what people have been

> doing already.  Vague suggestions that may perhaps do something

> someday aren't going to convince anybody.

Agreed.

I think that there are opportunities now for some companies that have

the vision to build useful tools that accelerate the process of

compliance to the new government reporting requirements that are coming

out in response to terrorism, the financial crisis and by an increasing

desire in the part of politicians on all sides in all jurisdictions to

talk about reducing wasteful regulation while wanting to control

everything and the expectation that the various government agencies will

monitor everything and instantly see patterns and individual

transactions that pose a threat to society.

 

I am not sure what role this forum has in making the case for

integrating tools that support an ontological approach to this

increasingly complex problem.

 

Ron

 

> John

> 

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