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Bill,
No - I am claiming that we talk
about holes in the same way as we talk about artefacts, and that if you create a
model of the world where "entity" must map to artefact then it is only
a partial model w.r.t. the things we talk about. Mantra: language works by
marking differences, models work by marking similarities. The question is,
is an ontology a model or a (formalized) language?
Sean Barker
Bristol, UK
This mail is publicly posted
to a distribution list as part of a process of public discussion, any
automatically generated statements to the contrary non-withstanding. It is the
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view.
Sean,
Are you claiming that all holes are artifacts or only that some
are? Bill Andersen
Ontology Works, Inc.
3600 O'Donnell Street, Suite 600
Baltimore, MD 21224
+1.410.675.1204 (w)
+1.410.675.1201 (f)
+1.443.858.6444 (m)
In constructive solid geometry, holes are frequently
constructed by subtracting one solid for another (drilling a hole is
equivalent to subtracting a cylinder). Consequently, to move a hole, we need
to have kept track of the subtracted solid and to move it. That is, the hole
is not the accidental absence of matter, but the deliberate presence of
"antimatter".
Similarly, in discussing NC controlled drilling, we
keep track of holes and patterns of holes, rather than try to describe only
the substrate and hope the machine thereby guesses which absences it should
be responsible for. In mould making, the objective is to make a hole the
shape of the part we are making. In making bottle, we are asked to design a
hole of a particular volume.
One might observe that doorways are just holes in
walls, a street is just a hole between buildings, an a parking space is just
a hole in a row of cars, an appointment is hole in my calendar where I want
to keep other things from filling the vacuum. If I can't have different
sorts of holes in my ontology, I'll be in trouble.
Sean Barker
Bristol, UK
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automatically generated statements to the contrary non-withstanding. It is
the opinion of the author, and does not represent an official company
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| Thanks a lot
all for reiteratioms (got the point thanks)
somehow however I am
still not convinced that a hole is 'something' in the same way (or
equivalent) to what's around it. surely what's around a hole is of a
different nature from the hole itself, so it would not be correct to say
to define them in the same way
but I accept that you may want to
define it by virtue of whats around it
(if thats the only thing you can
do).
I am not ready to argue this sensibly, sorry -
just will keep on observing (hole staring) and will report back when
I see something there
thanks
PDM
On 9/20/07, Jack
Teller <drjackteller@xxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
A
"hole" is a "something" that requires another "something" in
its
definition of existence, as in: "There's a _hole_ in the
_bucket_, dear
Liza..."
Jack
Peter F Brown wrote:
>
> A hole is not the same as a "nothing" – there are two
separate threads
> in this discussion: are we not talking about
two different "things" (I
> use the word advisedly and very
cautiously)?
>
> Peter B
>
> *From:* ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
[mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
] *On Behalf Of *Deborah
> MacPherson
> *Sent:* 18
September 2007 20:01
> *To:* [ontolog-forum]
> *Subject:*
Re: [ontolog-forum] entity: nothing
>
> Hi Paola
-
>
> The Cage analogy came around to silence being able to
be bounded by
> sound. Carved sculptures take away unwanted
material until only the
> essential parts remain. In museum design
certain content is not ready
> to be named but it can be
classified, subject areas yet to be defined
> are left as blank,
un-labeled placeholders allocating space, hoping
> future
requirements will fit without rearranging everything
again.
>
> More to your point surely is John's statement
"more like a boundary
> than pure nothingness". So with the
stretched metaphors above.....What
> do you think needs to be
bounded? What are opposite each other inside
> and outside the
boundaries? What could possibly be consistent across a
> range of
ontologies? What existing communication system like OWL, or
> ___,
or ___, or ___ is best suited to indicating a boundary? How do
>
you know when you encounter a boundary? Simply won't process? How do
> you "see" the holes and can you measure how big or small they
are?
>
> Deborah
>
> On 9/18/07, *paola.dimaio@xxxxxxxxx
<mailto: paola.dimaio@xxxxxxxxx>*
>
<paola.dimaio@xxxxxxxxx
<mailto:paola.dimaio@xxxxxxxxx>>
wrote:
>
> I am not entirely sure that we have not yet
answered this, I may have
> missed somethin
>
>
Following the discussion on holes, the one questrion that I am
left
> with is whether
> holes are entities as such, or non
entities and
>
> if so
> whether they would belong to
a ' class of nothing' being
> proposed/discussed somewhere
earlier on this forum
>
> It looks to me that they are non
entity cause they dont have a mass
> that can be measured
>
I mean an entity is determined by its attributes and properties while
> the only property of a hole that we can say is 'absence of
energy'
>
> This is an attempt to bring the hole discussion
into the focus of
> current ontological question
>
>
apologies if this is trivial
>
>
> --
> Paola
Di Maio
> School of IT
> www.mfu.ac.th <http://www.mfu.ac.th>
>
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