Good points, Paola. My take is posted inline below. =ppy
-- (01)
On 9/18/07, paola.dimaio@xxxxxxxxx <paola.dimaio@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Thanks Peter
>
> The problem would be that there is a lot of material discussed or referenced
> on the list which is not open content, nor open source code -
>
> >
> > [ppy] (a) 'published' may or may not mean 'open content' - we are
> > requiring the latter.
>
> [PDM] do you mean that all the references and discussions about the
> contents of papers and journal or book that says 'copyright by' are 'illegal'? (02)
[ppy] first of all, we all continue to hold the IPR to our own work
(one is not asked to give it up ... or give their IPR to Ontolog or
any other party), it is how your work is shared with (i.e. licensed
for use by) others in the community and the rest of the world that is
in question. (03)
That conveniently divides the world (from one's perspective) into
things you (A) HAVE IPR ON, and (B) DON'T HAVE IPR on. (04)
For (B) items, we do whatever we are doing now ... invoke 'fair use',
get permission to use, pay for the use, ... whatever. (05)
(A) is what we are really interested in -- because with this community
of practice (or CoP's in general), we are trying to create some sort
of collective knowledge or collective intelligence. The mandate for
'open content' will, hopefully, help us bootstrap into a virtuous
circle by allowing us to build upon each other's great work (rather
than re-inventing the wheel every time we get to get somewhere.) (06)
The short answer ... YES ... if you are sharing anything (that's
yours) here, make sure we/people can continue to share it. (07)
> > [ppy] (b) we *are* asking people to release their code.
>
> [PDM] If people in their discussions reference their approach and
>architecture,
> there is no code involved. (08)
[ppy] if there is code (or technology) involved, 'free software',
'open source', 'open technology' licenses should kick in. If no code
is involved, 'open content' applies (09)
> [PDM] I do not expect a commercial company to change
> their business model just to post a few lines on this forum, but I do expect
> individuals who work for companies
> to be able to post here and discuss their knowledge, as so many do, provided
> its not a direct sales pitch
>
> right?
>
> P (010)
[ppy] I do hope, but do not I do not expect a commercial company to
change their business model either. Therefore, at least two possible
situations may apply: (011)
(i) members from those companies pick carefully what they say/post and
what they don't say/post. As example, we have had IBM folks giving
talks on (012)
(ii) as discussed, we set up 'special' events, where we waive our
'open' IPR policy, just so that we can hear about those proprietary
work (if those companies are willing to share that with us.) (013)
>
>
>
>
> > Regards. =ppy
> > --
> >
> >
> > On 9/17/07, paola.dimaio@xxxxxxxxx <paola.dimaio@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > > It is inappropriate to focus the discussion on a product, however,
> > > many proprietary products are based on existing theories and ideas
> > > that are 'published' ie open
> > >
> > > I dont think we are asking anyone to release the code of their
> > > product, but to avoid referencing it directly when making a
> > > discussion point
> > >
> > > You should have a paper or a presentation tha presents the theoretical
> > > background of your work - say your approach - and that is
> > > 'implementation independent' , and then you can refer to it at will.
> > > Maybe just a wiki page on your site, where you can add and take, and
> > > make free contributions to (bet your clients would like that)
> > >
> > > Many of the research papers that we cite on this list, are
> > > unfortunately, copyrighted and unavailable to the public. I hope you
> > > appreciate the effort of this group to make knowledge accessible, one
> > > of its most noble goals, perhaps - never mind the pettyness at times -
> > >
> > > I think if you could reference papers instad of a proprietary
> > > implementation to make your argument would be acceptable as a
> > > reference in your discussion
> > >
> > > Btw Dennis, I am not doing work on quadruples (I wish) but a lot of
> > > reading of inteesting stuff and the quads came up on a list I
> > > remembered having seen different interestin arguments for it
> > > So my only merit is to bring the discussion up and maybe spotting a
> > > possible evolutionary trend there
> > >
> > > cheers
> > > PDM
> > >
> > > On 9/18/07, Dennis L. Thomas
> <DLThomas@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > > > Peter,
> > > >
> > > > Our software is proprietary.
> > > >
> > > > In response to Azamat's statement, "I had some communication with
> > > > Richard B. and found him as an open-minded person, committed to
> > > > advancing the cause of knowledge systems." I must agree. Dick is a
> > > > large, unbounded thinker. Teaching is in his blood as much as any
> > > > participant on this forum. It is a deep desire of his to share what
> > > > he has learned - or at least, some of this discoveries and secrets.
> > > > The rest is meant for the marketplace.
> > > >
> > > > If he chooses to respond, I am sure he will.
> > > >
> > > > Dennis
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sep 17, 2007, at 3:44 PM, Peter Yim wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Azamat,
> > > >
> > > > Thank you for the suggestion. Believe I did ask Dennis previously
> > > > whether his software/technology is open or proprietary. I don't
> > > > believe he responded in the affirmative.
> > > >
> > > > Let me ask again, politely,
> > > >
> > > > Dennis, is the system/technology you are discussing ("Mark 3") a "free
> > > > software" or "open sourced" ('free' or 'open' as defined in our IPR
> > > > policy* -
> http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?WikiHomePage#nid32)
> > > > ?
> > > >
> > > > Regards. =ppy
> > > >
> > > > P.S. Azamat, to make sure we don't misunderstand each other, may I
> > > > politely request that you review how the "free software", "open
> > > > source" and "open content" licenses are defined in our IPR Policy.
> > > > Thanks. =ppy
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 9/17/07, Azamat <abdoul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > > > > Peter,
> > > > > If politely asked they might open their knowledge technology
> > > > > secrets, thus
> > > > > enriching our discussion. As i remember, I had some communication
> with
> > > > > Richard B. and found him as an open-minded person, committed to
> > > > > advancing
> > > > > the cause of knowledge systems.
> > > > > Azamat
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Peter Yim" < peter.yim@xxxxxxxx>
> > > > > To: "[ontolog-forum]" <ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > > Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 11:19 PM
> > > > > Subject: [ontolog-forum] Appropriate to discuss [was - Re: ontospam]
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >> Azamat,
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> [AA] Dennis Thomas must be a good researcher, maybe, with
> > > > >>> some funny ideas about semantics, ontology, and knowledge.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> [ppy] maybe, but that is irrelevant ... as long as he has opted to
> > > > >> keep his technology and work proprietary (and not openly sharing
> > > > >> it in
> > > > >> accordance with our 'open' IPR Policy), it makes it inappropriate
> > > > >> material for discussion in this 'open forum' (except during
> > > > >> 'specially
> > > > >> arranged' events/settings.)
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Regards. =ppy
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Peter Yim
> > > > >> Co-convener, Ontolog
> > > > >> --
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> On 9/17/07, Azamat <abdoul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> It seems the forum needs not only more professional focusing on
> > > > >>> ontology
> > > > >>> but
> > > > >>> some patience to others positions, worldviews, and projects.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Dennis Thomas must be a good researcher, maybe, with some funny
> > > > >>> ideas
> > > > >>> about
> > > > >>> semantics, ontology, and knowledge. And he looks to be frank
> > > > >>> promoting
> > > > >>> his
> > > > >>> project as much as it is persistently done with CL, IKL, etc.
> > > > >>> As a private investigator, he might say more interesting ideas
> > > > >>> than the
> > > > >>> cold
> > > > >>> and stale things one used to hear from the academic investigators.
> > > > >>> It should be observed that most radical breakthroughs the science
> > > > >>> and
> > > > >>> technology expect from private researchers, like William Dobelle,
> > > > >>> who was
> > > > >>> the first neuroscientist, inventing an operative brain implant, a
> > > > >>> brain-computer interface, to restore sight, acquired blindness.
> > > > >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_H._Dobelle
> > > > >>> The same rule applies to fundamental ontology and its critical
> > > > >>> technological
> > > > >>> application, semantic web.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Azamat Abdoullaev
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> ----- Original Message -----
> > > > >>> From: "Pat Hayes" <phayes@xxxxxxx>
> > > > >>> To: "[ontolog-forum]" < ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > >>> Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 8:22 PM
> > > > >>> Subject: [ontolog-forum] ontospam (was: Re: Current Semantic Web
> > > > >>> Layer
> > > > >>> pizza
> > > > >>> (was ckae))
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> Folks,
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> Allow me to suggest that we refrain from responding to such
> > > > >>>> obviously
> > > > >>>> nonsensical and vacuous expressions of institutionalized
> > > > >>>> ignorance as
> > > > >>>> the recent postings on this thread. My response, after some
> cursory
> > > > >>>> checking to verify that the claims are indeed as nonsensical as
> > > > >>>> they
> > > > >>>> sound (in this case, for example, the fact that the world of
> > > > >>>> Thomas,
> > > > >>>> Ballard and KFI is entirely self-referring and self-contained,
> with
> > > > >>>> no connection to any scholarly or published work for the last 20
> > > > >>>> years; and that if its claims were even partly correct, it would
> by
> > > > >>>> now have put Oracle out of business) is to simply create an email
> > > > >>>> filter to auto-trash such stuff. Arguing with these people is
> like
> > > > >>>> arguing with creationists about evolution.
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> Let me propose that we adopt the term "ontospam" for this kind of
> > > > >>>> input, in order that we can all save one anothers' time by using
> it
> > > > >>>> to categorize such inputs quickly and precisely. It is pretty
> > > > >>>> easy to
> > > > >>>> recognize, see for example
> > > > >>>>
> http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?DennisThomas.
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> Pat Hayes
> > > > >>>> --
> > > > >>>>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >>>> --
> > > > >>>> IHMC (850)434 8903 or (650)494 3973 home
> > > > >>>> 40 South Alcaniz St. (850)202 4416 office
> > > > >>>> Pensacola (850)202 4440 fax
> > > > >>>> FL 32502 (850)291 0667 cell
> > > > >>>> phayesAT-SIGNihmc.us http://www.ihmc.us/users/phayes
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> _________________________________________________________________
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> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Dennis L. Thomas
> > > > Knowledge Foundations, Inc.
> > > > Ofc (714) 890-5984
> > > > Cell (760) 500-9167
> > > > DLThomas@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > http://www.KnowledgeFoundations.com
> > > > ------------------------------------------------
> > > > Managing the Complexity of Enterprise Knowledge
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Dennis L. Thomas
> > > > Knowledge Foundations, Inc.
> > > > Ofc (714) 890-5984
> > > > Cell (760) 500-9167
> > > > DLThomas@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > http://www.KnowledgeFoundations.com
> > > > ------------------------------------------------
> > > > Managing the Complexity of Enterprise Knowledge
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Paola Di Maio
> > > School of IT
> > > www.mfu.ac.th
> > > *********************************************
> > >
> > >
> _________________________________________________________________
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> >
> >
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>
>
> --
>
> Paola Di Maio
> School of IT
> www.mfu.ac.th
> *********************************************
>
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> (014)
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