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Re: [ontolog-forum] Reality Oriented Logic

To: "Azamat" <abdoul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: "[ontolog-forum] " <ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
From: Pat Hayes <phayes@xxxxxxx>
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 14:04:06 -0500
Message-id: <p06230907c2e25db3b852@[]>
>Pat wrote:
>''As we have had this discussion in this forum now several times, I 
>would like to ask anyone who
>disagrees with the above to actually make a case for their position, 
>rather than simply assume
>that virtually all of modern logical theory is mistaken and proceed 
>from there. Azamat, you want
>to start?''
>You might missed this link of thread addressed to John, much 
>relevant to the point:
>John,    (01)    (01)

No, I didn't miss it.    (02)

>The scopes and subject matters of Ontology and Logic shouldn't be mixed.
>The real semantics or meanings of any symbolism or notation is defined by
>ontology; for this is the only knowledge domain studying the Being of
>Everything which is, happens and relates.    (03)

....    (04)

>  Logic considers the elements (the
>terms, propositions, inferences or syllogisms) of the whole discourse aside
>from their reference to the world (or their real meanings and significance).
>As a formal science, Logic deals with the formal patterns of discourse
>common to all sciences.    (02)    (05)

Let us agree on the above, for now. I would phrase it somewhat 
differently, but this will do for the discussion at hand.    (06)

>So, Ontology deals with the matter and content, with the real components of
>discourse about anything, while Logic is an art, an instrument of
>intellectual reasoning, at least a formal science    (07)

Even let us agree (temporarily) to this ...    (08)

>,and it has nothing to do
>with reality, real significance or real meanings,    (09)

  ... but this is a mistake, a non-sequiteur. I can perhaps illustrate 
it best by speaking of mathematics. One could say about mathematics 
everything that you say here about logic, and indeed many 
philosophers of mathematics have said such things, eg Russell's 
famous slogan. (Mathematics is the subject where we do not know what 
we are talking about, nor whether what we are saying about it is 
true.) However, none of this means that mathematics cannot be applied 
to reality. In fact, it can be, which is why we have it all. 
Similarly for logic. "Pure logic" does not concern itself with 
questions about the structure of reality, but that does not mean that 
logics cannot be applied to, cannot speak of, reality. They can. One 
does not need to invent a special "Reality-oriented logic" to do 
one's ontologizing in.    (010)

>  a coherent representation
>of which is the ultimate target of Intelligent Web.    (011)

Im not sure what the Intelligent Web is supposed to be, but the 
Semantic Web is a real technological initiative, and I can assure you 
that this is not its ultimate target.    (012)

Pat    (013)

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