Pat wrote:
''As we have had this discussion in this forum now several times, I would
like to ask anyone who
disagrees with the above to actually make a case for their position, rather
than simply assume
that virtually all of modern logical theory is mistaken and proceed from
there. Azamat, you want
to start?'' (01)
You might missed this link of thread addressed to John, much relevant to the
point:
John, (01) (02)
The scopes and subject matters of Ontology and Logic shouldn't be mixed.
The real semantics or meanings of any symbolism or notation is defined by
ontology; for this is the only knowledge domain studying the Being of
Everything which is, happens and relates. If Ontology is a real science,
Logic is a formal science, because it concerned only with the formal parts
of Discourse about Anything or Everything. Logic considers the elements (the
terms, propositions, inferences or syllogisms) of the whole discourse aside
from their reference to the world (or their real meanings and significance).
As a formal science, Logic deals with the formal patterns of discourse
common to all sciences. (02) (03)
So, Ontology deals with the matter and content, with the real components of
discourse about anything, while Logic is an art, an instrument of
intellectual reasoning, at least a formal science,and it has nothing to do
with reality, real significance or real meanings, a coherent representation
of which is the ultimate target of Intelligent Web. (03) (04)
Azamat (04) (05)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Pat Hayes" <phayes@xxxxxxx>
To: "Azamat" <abdoul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: "[ontolog-forum] " <ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 10:57 PM
Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] Reality Oriented Logic (06)
>Duane wrote:
>''I find the title of this thread a bit difficult to grok. "Reality
>oriented
>Logic"? As opposed to logic based on non-reality? I am not sure I
>understand what the alternative is. Can someone please explain? Sorry if
>I
>missed the obvious.''
>
>It is not so complex as you might think. (07)
Indeed, it is meaningless. (08)
>There are generally two types of logics: Content-oriented and
>Form-oriented, as much as two kinds of semantics: reality-centered and just
>so called formal; semantics. The first one is reality-driven logic based on
>ontological axioms and assumptions, where the universe of discourse is the
>world, its kinds, levels, pieces, fragments. The second one, more familiar
>here on this forum, is nonreality oriented logic based on formal
>assumptions, where the universe of discourse is logical objects and
>processes. Although it may refer to anything, such logic represents nothing
>but the structure of human thought and knowledge. (09)
I could not disagree more. This passage is full
of basic misunderstandings. Formal semantics
means semantics done formally, not a semantics of
something 'unreal' because it is 'formal' in
nature. The universe of discourse of a (formal)
logic, according to the usual (formal) semantics,
is not "logical objects and processes" (whatever
they are) but is some set of things. Any set of
things will do, and they can be abstract,
imaginary, real or concrete. The theory is
completely agnostic concerning the nature of
these things in the universe. They are not
required to be "constructs". They are not
restricted to things that are "logical" in
nature. Nothing in any part of the metatheory,
semantics, philosophy, engineering or history of
modern logic even slightly suggests that logics
do not apply to reasoning about entities in the
real world. All logic [*] is 'reality oriented',
although it might be better to say 'reality
orientable'. (010)
As we have had this discussion in this forum now
several times, I would like to ask anyone who
disagrees with the above to actually make a case
for their position, rather than simply assume
that virtually all of modern logical theory is
mistaken and proceed from there. Azamat, you want
to start? (011)
Pat Hayes (012)
[*] PS. Actually, some logics are restricted to
reasoning about purely computational entities
which satisfy the second recursion theorem.
Prolog is an example. But in this discussion that
is probably a mere technicality; and in any case,
computation is arguably real itself. (013)
>
>So the content-driven logic is about abstract ontological theories (or
>languages) composed of sign (symbol) systems and signification relations
>from sings to constructs to world entities.
>The form-driven logic is concerned with abstract formal theories (or
>languages) consisting of sign (symbol) systems plus just designation
>relations from signs to constructs.
>Jon is trying to start a good thread, with no positive understanding. A bit
>sad.
>
>Azamat Abdoullaev
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Duane Nickull" <<mailto:dnickull@xxxxxxxxx>dnickull@xxxxxxxxx>
>To: "[ontolog-forum]"
><<mailto:ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>;
>"Arisbe" <<mailto:arisbe@xxxxxxxxxx>arisbe@xxxxxxxxxx>; "Inquiry"
><<mailto:inquiry@xxxxxxxxxx>inquiry@xxxxxxxxxx>; "Semantic Web"
><<mailto:semantic-web@xxxxxx>semantic-web@xxxxxx>
>Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 7:52 PM
>Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] Reality Oriented Logic
>
>I find the title of this thread a bit difficult to grok. "Reality oriented
>Logic"? As opposed to logic based on non-reality? I am not sure I
>understand what the alternative is. Can someone please explain? Sorry if
>I
>missed the obvious.
>
>Duane
>
>
>On 8/9/07 5:56 AM, "Jon Awbrey" <<mailto:jawbrey@xxxxxxx>jawbrey@xxxxxxx>
>wrote:
>
>> o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o
>>
>> ROL. Note 3
>>
>> o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o
> >
>> JA = Jon Awbrey
>> JS = John Sowa
>>
>> Cf:
>>
><http://ontolog.cim3.net/forum/ontolog-forum/2007-08/msg00190.html>http://ontolog.cim3.net/forum/ontolog-forum/2007-08/msg00190.html
>> Cf:
>>
><http://ontolog.cim3.net/forum/ontolog-forum/2007-08/msg00194.html>http://ontolog.cim3.net/forum/ontolog-forum/2007-08/msg00194.html
>> CC: Arisbe List, Inquiry List, Ontolog Forum, SemWeb List
>>
>> John,
>>
>> Continuing from where I left off,
>> with current comments unindented.
>>
>> JA: Let's look again at the concept of "inter-operability"
>> that you outlined last time. I'm a little hesitant
>> about calling it that just yet, and would prefer
>> to call it "inter-translatability" until I know
>> more about it.
>>
>> JS: Consider the following three notations:
>>
>> JS: 1. The first-order subset of Peirce's Algebra of Logic of 1885.
>>
>> JS: 2. The first-order subset of Frege's Begriffsschrift of 1879.
>>
>> JS: 3. Any of the three concrete notations in Annex A, B, or C of
>> the Final Draft International Standard of Common Logic of 2007.
>>
>> JA: I am told by people who apparently understand these things that
>> having not just 2 but 3 distinct languages on the Rosetta Stone
>> was crucial to finding the key, but let me first consider a far
>> simpler example of the ilk that I know from practical endeavors.
>>
>> JA: Something that I spent a goodly portion of the (19)80's doing,
>> and in such primitive computing circumstances that I had to write
>> all of the necessary utilities myself, was to translate an articula
>> x_1 of one language, medium, or type L_1 (written x_1 : L_1) into
>> an articula x_2 of another language, medium, or type L_2 (written
>> x_2 : L_2), perform a computation on x_2 : L_2 that would yield
>> an articula y_2 : L_2, then translate y_2 : L_2 back into the
>> corresponding y_1 : L_1.
>>
>> JA: Here is a diagram of the process:
>>
>> x_1 : L_1 ----------> x_2 : L_2
>> | |
>> |
>> | |
>> |
>> | |
>> V V
>> y_1 : L_1 <---------- y_2 : L_2
>>
>> JA: The more solid arrows indicate the actual computations.
>> The more dashing arrow, the road not taken, as it were,
>> suggests the virtual computation, in effect exchanging
>> x_1 : L_1 for y_1 : L_1 or transforming x_1 : L_1 into
>> y_1 : L_1.
>>
>> Why do we do this? Why such a roundabout calculation?
>> Well, it's important to note that the reason for this
>> detour is not just some equivalence between languages
>> but based on the existence of complex factors, namely,
>> that L_1 and L_2 are analogous in an abstract logical
>> or mathematical sense while departing from each other
>> in a pertinent class of concrete pragmatic properties.
>>
>> The computational archetype of this particular gambit
>> is probably the trick known as "logarithms", where we
>> convert what was once considered a "hard" computation,
>> namely, multiplication, into a relatively "easy" task,
>> namely, addition. The trick works because there is a
>> homomorphism log : (X,*) -> (Y,+) on suitably bounded
>> subsets X and Y of the real numbers R that enables us
>> to start with a problem presented in the form a*b and
>> to re-present it in the form log(a) + log(b), and all
>> the computations involved in this long way round used
>> to be in former times appreciably easier to carry out
>> than the corresponding multiplication task.
>>
>> As a general observation, then, the reason that we keep
>> a diversity of languages around is not because they are
>> indifferent in all of their characters but because they
>> provide us with different advantages at different times.
>>
>> Breaking here ...
>>
>> Jon Awbrey
>>
>> o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o
>> inquiry e-lab:
>> <http://stderr.org/pipermail/inquiry/>http://stderr.org/pipermail/inquiry/
>> ¢iare:
>>
><http://www.centiare.com/Directory:Jon_Awbrey>http://www.centiare.com/Directory:Jon_Awbrey
>> getwiki:
>>
><http://www.getwiki.net/-UserTalk:Jon_Awbrey>http://www.getwiki.net/-UserTalk:Jon_Awbrey
> > zhongwen wp:
>
><http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jon_Awbrey>http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jon_Awbrey
>>
><http://www.altheim.com/ceryle/wiki/Wiki.jsp?page=JonAwbrey>http://www.altheim.com/ceryle/wiki/Wiki.jsp?page=JonAwbrey
>> wp review:
>>
><http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?showuser=398>http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?showuser=398
>> o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o
>>
>>
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