Re: [ontolog-forum] to concept or not to concept, is this a question?

[paola.dimaio@xxxxxxxxx]

Deborah, Patrick
thanks -

I have scanned Barry's  (intringuing) paper, but do not have time to study in detail - being o and c
not central to my problems right now - I also did  a keyword search in the paper for concept,conceptual and  and conceptualization, with zero results (bug in my world? - or have they manged to make the c world disappear without trace and still discuss the notions attached to  it in the paper? - please indicate what page/line is the argument if you could)
Will  study in more detail when I have time.

You mean there is no actual concrete proposal to ban the term 'concept' from the discourse, rather an informal suggestion or just avoid it - phew

I would agree that we need to objectivize what is in our mind, and that ontology building is part of that effort. But the mind (individual) is the only organ that we have capable of producing abstraction
and not sure if we should detach ourselves from the only generic term that we have to refer to the representation of that abstraction (the conceptualization) that we are capable of.  

I need to project the product of my mind (a concept) into the physical world, and need an umbrella term for it (apologies for the circularity).  Linguistic fuzziness has a role, although I agree it is not always the best choice.

I remember when I went to school teachers asked us to avoid using the term 'thing' and asked us to make an effort to use a more appropriate word , for example, instead of saying I feel something (undefined) we should look for a more appropriate vocabulary (I feel an emotion, or I feel this and feel that), thus helping us to develop our linguisti skills by learning how to use more precise words


I am not sure that our languages are adequately developed to be able to support and express all the abstract generalizations/ concepts that the mind can conceive, maybe thats why we use a generalization of something abstract that we do not have words for as 'concept'. Generalizations are necessary because they allow anyone to visualize their own thing,  

But if it is a choice of words that you are after (avoiding to use a term which is potentially confusing to some) then I respect the choice, except that I wont be able to find  relevant paragraph where the notion of 'concept' is discussed if you avoid it.

I still think if we avoid 'concept' and derived words, we need to find a set of valid substitutes, lest we find ourselves lost for words - representation of the abstraction perhaps is an equivalent _expression_, or should we avoid that too, and the entire class of terms that refer to generic abstract representations?

I think 'notion' is a word I use as a synonym of concept, (rather than umbrella?), but somehow it is not so 'expressive' , and maybe would end up with the same issue later on?

Or maybe, just maybe, the word concept is a little abused, a cover word
for when we dont know what to say really. The rather than avoid it, we
should learn how to use it only when appropriate?

boh -  what a  problem eh?

cheers

PDM
(puzzled)
((ignore me))

On 6/14/07, Cassidy, Patrick J. <pcassidy@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Paola,

   I feel your pain.

  I believe that "concept" in most communities is used as a  vague non-technical term that means "any mental structure used in thinking", and is useful for talking about things (mental structures in the brain - the result of neurological processes) whose exact structure we do not presently have the technology to discover, and in that sense is perfectly useful in general and technical discussions as well, provided that we do not try to actually fix on some rigid definition as the only possible meaning.  Here are dictionary definitions from The Random House Webster:

1.

a general notion or idea; conception.

2.

an idea of something formed by mentally combining all its characteristics or particulars; a construct.

3.

a directly conceived or intuited object of thought.

 

     The issue that Barry Smith is particularly concerned about is whether the mathematical/logical structures we put into our ontologies should represent some mental structure in our brain, or represent the physical objects and processes in the real world.  Whether there is a "real world" of abstract things like numbers that can be represented independently of how we think about them is another issue..  The way I have viewed the issue is that it is indeed my intention, like Barry's, to represent things in the real world as the "referent" for the structures in my ontologies.  But I am acutely aware that in fact I am representing my own understanding of those things in the real world - and so is everyone else, which is why our ontologies differ and we have these wonderful stimulating discussions.

 

   If I understand him, Barry's point of avoiding "concept" is to focus on the things that are significant in the physical systems we deal with, and avoid excessive, experimentally unverifiable, and potentially confusing abstractions.  That's reasonable.  I myself personally don't think it is necessary to avoid using the term "concept" in technical matters, provided that we are clear that it is a vague general term not intended to have any precise technical meaning.

 

Pat

 

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From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of paola.dimaio@xxxxxxxxx
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 8:17 AM
To: [ontolog-forum]
Subject: [ontolog-forum] to concept or not to concept, is this a question?

I am writing up against a deadline and suddenly I realise that one of the foundational artifacts in ontology is being questioned on this list 'the concept'. and 'the conceptualization'

 If I take out the word concept from all the papers that I am referencing, ontology as a science end ups like a colander, full of holes
If I take out concepts from my mind, my brain stops thinking. I cannot see anything anymore. I go blind Everything in my mind is a concept, as far as I can tell.

Yet I now feel that, given these discussion, maybe I should justify the word 'concept each time I use it (by concept I mean....)
somehow this is slowing me down This question has started to bug me

I personally think that 'concept' is a rather elementary and necessary _expression_ of thinking and a artifact of knowledge representation

Have you,  guys who don't think with concepts, written a paper, are you serious, or just joking? What are you going to substitute concept with?


Thanks a lot



Paola Di Maio *****(slightly disturbed)

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Paola Di Maio *****
School of Information Technology
Mae Fah Luang University
Chiang Rai - Thailand
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