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Re: [ontolog-forum] Ontology, Information Models and the 'Real World': C

To: "[ontolog-forum]" <ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
From: Ingvar Johansson <ingvar.johansson@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 17:20:26 +0200
Message-id: <465C44BA.8090907@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
John F. Sowa schrieb:
> Wacek and Ingvar,
>
> It happens that English has no tenseless verb forms.
> In predicate calculus, you could write:
>
>     ~(Ex)(rose(x) & blue(x)).
>
> This statement has no reference to any time or place.
> In English, it is possible to make a statement without
> reference to place, but not to time.
>       (01)

And isn't this the reason why Quine introduced his notion of 'eternal 
sentence'? And propositions expressed by eternal sentences cannot change 
truth-values, can they?    (02)

> vQ> The sentence "no roses are blue" was true some time ago,
>  > and is false now;  but does it correspond to the same
>  > proposition in both cases?
>
> I would like to express the proposition stated by the
> above formula in predicate calculus.  That statement
> is independent of any time, place, or context.  The
> proposition it states has no unbound variables that
> could be bound, explicitly or implicitly, to any context.
>
> Yet that proposition can have different truth values
> in different contexts despite the fact that its meaning
> does not change.
>       (03)

Are you denying the old truth: 'same meaning, same reference'? To me, 
this truth implies 'same proposition, same aboutness', which you are 
denying.    (04)

best,
Ingvar    (05)

> IJ> I would say that there is only one *sentence meaning*
>  > "no roses are blue", but two *used sentence meanings* and
>  > two propositions, one which is true and one which is false.
>  > Propositions cannot change truth-values.
>
> I would identify 'sentence meaning' with 'proposition'.
> Then you could apply the word 'used' to either one, if you
> like.  I wouldn't say that propositions or sentence meanings
> change -- they just represent configurations of individuals,
> properties, and relations, real or hypothetical.  But they
> can be used for different purposes.
>
> vQ> Note that I do not argue for this or other theory of
>  > propositions;  I am just curious, and it seems to be
>  > an issue that should not be just neglected (e.g., for
>  > the purpose of precise documentation of IKL, a very
>  > practical task).
>
> Since IKL (like predicate calculus and conceptual graphs) has
> no default tenses, it has no implicit context dependencies.
>
> vQ> As above;  if a proposition is fixed to a fact, it cannot
>  > be refixed to another fact -- or would this be what you suggest?
>  > If the fact is (was) that Osama slept at t1, the proposition
>  > that Osama slept at t1 was true, remains true, and will always
>  > be true.
>
> That raises some important questions:
>
>   1. What is a fact?
>
>   2. What are the references in a proposition bound to?
>      To individuals in a particular fact?  To individuals
>      independent of any specific fact?  Or to configurations
>      of individuals, which may be considered independently
>      of any specific binding?
>
> I would claim that facts (at least facts about the world,
> not facts such as 2+2=4) are bound to specific chunks of
> space-time.
>
> But I would say that propositions are abstractions about
> configurations, which could characterize different facts in
> different contexts.  If a proposition names an individual,
> such as Osama or Bob, it is not necessarily bound to a
> particular fact in which that individual participates.
>
> For example, you might ask "How often did Bob wake up last night?"
> To answer that question, I would consider the proposition that
> Bob wakes up and try to determine how many times the corresponding
> configuration was a correct characterization.  (Perhaps Bob fell
> asleep in front of his web cam, which was on for the whole night.)
> I could answer that by checking each event in the record for which
> the configuration of Bob waking up occurred.
>
> An interpretation of that kind is required to support hypothetical
> statements, which may refer to actual individuals.  For example:
>
>     If Gerald Ford had been elected president in 1976,
>     Ronald Reagan would not have been elected president in 1980.
>
> That counterfactual statement refers to actual individuals and
> possible outcomes of actual events.  Both of the propositions
> in the antecedent and the consequent could be translated to
> different languages while retaining the same meaning, but there
> are no facts to which either of the propositions could be bound.
>
> This interpretation is consistent with the claim that a proposition
> represents an abstract configuration, which might include references
> to actual individuals independent of any specific facts in which
> those individuals participate.
>
> John
>  
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>       (06)


-- 
Ingvar Johansson
IFOMIS, Saarland University
     home site: http://ifomis.org/
     personal home site:
     http://hem.passagen.se/ijohansson/index.html      (07)



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