Dear Chris and Ingvar, (01)
I've been away and missed this. (02)
> The direct/indirect distinction was raised by Matthew and can be
> found in
> ISO 15926. Matthew or David can give you the latest links if you
> cannot
> google it.
>
> It is part of an ongoing discussion elsewhere on the list ... e.g.
> ---
>
> Matthew W: "Could you give me a unit (or two) that you think only
> applies to
> one kind-of-quantity, and I'll see if I can identify another?
>
> IJ-answer: m (length), kg (mass), and t (duration). (03)
MW: So some other quantity kinds that use these units would be:
Maximum ship length allowed on berth
Maximum allowed loaded weight
Minimum Dwell Time (but you did not actually give a unit for this) (04)
Any other takers? (05)
Regards (06)
Matthew West
Information Junction
Tel: +44 560 302 3685
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matthew.west@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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http://www.matthew-west.org.uk/ (07)
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> ---
>
> The issue is, as you have indicated, one about the scope of the UoM
> ontology.
> This question of 'indirect' units was being discussed and I
> (assuming that
> this meant it was an 'allowed' topic) commented on it. Was I
> mistaken? So, I
> made no judgment about whether it is in our scope (your question
> seems to
> imply I did) - I'll let you guys argue about that.
>
> However, if I was asked to make such a judgement I would say that
> it is a
> difficult call. With the direct units it is reasonably easy to say
> how these
> should be used. For indirect properties it is more difficult, but
> much more
> useful. The engineers I have worked with would like to find some
> kind of
> answer other than rule of thumb. A substantial proportion of the
> quantities
> measures in their datasheets are 'indirect'. So, for them, the
> distinction
> is important.
>
> If one does include them in, one of the problems is the sheer
> number of
> indirect relationships and the lack of organisation. I think there
> is some
> work to be done on explaining / understanding / unbundling the
> indirect
> relationship if one wishes to get a reasonably general set of
> rules.
>
> > Well, indeed. But surely this notion of proper operation is not
> part
> > of an ontology of units and quantities, even if that is
> understood to
> > cover issues of how quantities are measured.
>
> So, if one would like some general classification of indirect
> units, my
> guess is that it will be.
>
> Regards,
> Chris Partridge
> Chief Ontologist
>
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>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Pat Hayes [mailto:phayes@xxxxxxx]
> > Sent: 30 September 2009 23:50
> > To: uom-ontology-std; Chris Partridge
> > Subject: Re: [uom-ontology-std] What is mass?
> >
> > Chris, before proceeding, could you please tell us what you mean
> by a
> > 'direct' property, and why you feel that this direct/indirect
> > distinction is relevant to our main goal here of formalizing an
> > ontology of quantities and units.
> >
> > Pat Hayes
> >
> > On Sep 30, 2009, at 5:30 PM, Chris Partridge wrote:
> >
> > > Gunther,
> > >
> > > Your examples seem to agree with my point that indirect
> properties are
> > > different from direct ones.
> > > And I see you cash out the indirect property as a state (the
> option
> > > I noted
> > > in my original email).
> > >
> > > In your example, as far as I can ascertain, you describe
> observing a
> > > direct
> > > temperature, but you stipulate an indirect temperature - e.g.
> the
> > > "Maximum
> > > operating temperature of Machine X" rather than observing or
> > > measuring it.
> > > My guess is that there is more than mere stipulation involved
> here.
> > > One of things your example does not capture is what operating
> properly
> > > entails.
> >
> > Well, indeed. But surely this notion of proper operation is not
> part
> > of an ontology of units and quantities, even if that is
> understood to
> > cover issues of how quantities are measured.
> >
> > One can play this game of 'you havn't captured X' for ever.
> > Eventually, it will always become circular.
> >
> > Pat
> >
> > > Typically there are quite a few ceteris paribus conditions,
> which
> > > are not mentioned here (or are implied by the use of the phrase
> "act
> > > of
> > > operating properly").
> > >
> > > I'll leave it to the engineers to provide examples of scale
> > > properties of
> > > temperature.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Chris Partridge
> > > Chief Ontologist
> > >
> > > Mobile: +44 790 5167263
> > > Phone: +44 20 81331891
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> > >
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: uom-ontology-std-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:uom-ontology-std-
> > >> bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Gunther Schadow
> > >> Sent: 30 September 2009 22:54
> > >> To: uom-ontology-std
> > >> Subject: Re: [uom-ontology-std] What is mass?
> > >>
> > >> Chris Partridge wrote:
> > >>> They seem to be like Cambridge properties, in as much as it
> is not
> > >>> clear
> > > how
> > >>> mere examination of the object will reveal (the value of) the
> > >>> property.
> > > So
> > >>> some kind of explanation of the relation is needed to
> understand it.
> > >>>
> > >>> At the practical engineering level, the normal
> interpretations of
> > >>> scale
> > >>> operations such as addition (e.g. in the case of mass,
> putting both
> > > objects
> > >>> with the mass on the same scale) and so on do not seem to
> work in
> > >>> the
> > > same
> > >>> way.
> > >>
> > >> This only works for extensive properties. It fails with
> temperature
> > >> already. So that aspect does not seem to make a difference
> between
> > >> maximum allowable temperature and actual temperature.
> > >>
> > >> To me "maximum allowable temperature" is the upper bound of
> the
> > >> "operating temperature" interval, which in turn is a criterion
> over
> > >> the actual temperature property. The way we handle such things
> in
> > >> HL7 is like this:
> > >>
> > >> "Maximum temperature = 40 degree Celsius" is
> > >>
> > >> Observation (criterion)
> > >> of quantity /core temperature/
> > >> at time /any time/
> > >> has value [15;40] degree Celsius
> > >>
> > >> "Actual temperature 25 degree Celsius" is
> > >>
> > >> Observation (actual)
> > >> of quantity /core temperature/
> > >> at time 2009-09-30T15:05
> > >> has value [24.5;25.5] degree Celsius
> > >>
> > >> "Actual temperature 43 degree Celsius" is
> > >>
> > >> Observation (actual)
> > >> of quantity /core temperatue/
> > >> at time 2009-09-30T15:15
> > >> has value [42.5;43.5] degree Celsius
> > >>
> > >> Comparison between a criterion and an actual quantity is done
> by
> > >> comparing whether the actual quantity is included in the
> criterion.
> > >> That way one can also define other criteria, such as
> > >>
> > >> "Alarm temperature at > 35 degree Celsius"
> > >>
> > >> Observation (criterion)
> > >> of quantity /core temperature/
> > >> at time /any time/
> > >> has value [35;-) degree Celsius
> > >>
> > >> The difference between the 2 criteria is how they are related
> to
> > >> other information. For example, operating temperature would be
> > >> related to the operation act that the machine performs whereas
> > >> alarm temperature would be related to the alarm action:
> > >>
> > >> Act "to operate properly"
> > >> isPerformedBy Machine
> > >> hasThroughCondition Observation (criterion) for "operating
> > >> temperature
> > >> range"
> > >>
> > >> Act "to raise alarm"
> > >> isPerformedBy TemperatureMonitor
> > >> hasSubject Machine
> > >> hasTriggerCondition Observation (criterion) for "alarm
> temperature"
> > >>
> > >> so a lot of these notions of "indirect properties" is in my
> view
> > >> best modeled by additional structures. But nevertheless one
> can
> > >> always define a property as a primitive to stand for such a
> complex
> > >> model. E.g.,
> > >>
> > >> "Maximum operating temperature of Machine X" :=
> > >> the high boundary of
> > >> the range value of
> > >> the Observation (criterion)
> > >> of quantity /core temperature/
> > >> which is the throughCondition of
> > >> the act of operating properly
> > >> performed by
> > >> the Machine X.
> > >>
> > >> If we avoid such "indirect properties" with such models, there
> are
> > >> then fewer true "direct properties" left, such as /core
> temperature/.
> > >> However, you still have multiple temperatures, such as
> > >>
> > >> - core temperature
> > >> - surface temperature
> > >> - measured by holding a thermometer close to the shell
> > >> - measured by an attached thermometer (using heat transfer
> creme)
> > >>
> > >> and lo and behold, we can't really compare the core
> temperature and
> > >> the surface temperature to find out if the machine is still
> > >> operating.
> > >> But we can compare the surface temperatures with core
> temperatures
> > >> to find out that the surface temperatures are always closer to
> the
> > >> ambient temperature than the core temperature.
> > >>
> > >> regards,
> > >> -Gunther
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D.
> > >> gschadow@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >> Associate Professor Indiana University School of
> > >> Informatics
> > >> Regenstrief Institute, Inc. Indiana University School of
> > >> Medicine
> > >> tel:1(317)423-5521 http://
> > >> aurora.regenstrief.org
> > >>
> > >>
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