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Re: [ontology-summit] System Components

To: Ontology Summit 2012 discussion <ontology-summit@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
From: Jack Ring <jring7@xxxxxxxxx>
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2012 00:02:57 -0700
Message-id: <A3F771A6-194A-4C91-B9D6-E12F107E2486@xxxxxxxxx>
How is that stated in an ontology? As a relation twixt church and bishopric?    (01)

On Feb 1, 2012, at 11:53 PM, doug foxvog wrote:    (02)

>> Is a bishopric monitored for compliance? By who or what?
> 
> The bishopric is a suborganization of the church.  The church would
> have the responsibility for monitoring the bishopric for compliance.
> How this is done is up to the church.
> 
> -- doug
> 
>> What remedies (resilience) are applicable to a bishopric?
>> On Feb 1, 2012, at 12:00 AM, doug foxvog wrote:
>> 
>>>>> what happens when the next person gets instantiated as the (same)
>>>>> bishop?
>>> 
>>>> Here is one take on it (without mentioning 4D?)
>>>> The role of bishop of Liverpool was used by Person A for time-period
>>>> 100.
>>>> That role may be used by Person B for the next time period 101.  You
>>>> may identify this triple relationship as you wish.
>>> 
>>> We are talking about three things, not two, the corporation sole, the
>>> role of bishop, and the person who occupies the role of bishop for a
>>> given bishopric.
>>> 
>>> The Bishopric is an intangible individual (like a corporation) that can
>>> own property and has been granted authority to perform certain kinds
>>> of acts.
>>> 
>>> A Person while performing the role of Bishop, has the derived authority
>>> to perform the actions which the Bishopric is permitted.  This is the
>>> same as any other corporate officer being permitted to act in the name
>>> of her corporation when authorized.
>>> 
>>> -- doug f
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Gary
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 5:57 PM, Chris Partridge
>>>> <partridgec@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> It looks like you are describing something similar to a qua object,
>>>>> which
>>>>> has no identity.****
>>>>> 
>>>>> Not sure we are talking about the same thing. Bishop in this case is a
>>>>> particular bishop, such as the ‘Bishop of Liverpool’ – a corporation
>>>>> sole,
>>>>> a legal person. If we take the approach you suggest, what happens when
>>>>> the
>>>>> next person gets instantiated as the (same) bishop. In what sense is
>>>>> it
>>>>> the
>>>>> ‘same’ bishop – the bishop continues to own the land, etc.****
>>>>> 
>>>>> Wouldn’t Occam’s razor prefer a simple agent.****
>>>>> 
>>>>> ** **
>>>>> 
>>>>> Regards,****
>>>>> 
>>>>> Chris ****
>>>>> 
>>>>> ** **
>>>>> 
>>>>> *From:* ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:
>>>>> ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] *On Behalf Of *Gary
>>>>> Berg-Cross
>>>>> *Sent:* 31 January 2012 21:47
>>>>> 
>>>>> *To:* Ontology Summit 2012 discussion
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [ontology-summit] System Components****
>>>>> 
>>>>> ** **
>>>>> 
>>>>> Chris,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Chris noted>I find it odd that a qua object can own property, have
>>>>> responsibilities, declare war (Monarchs), etc. – which the person
>>>>> cannot
>>>>> do.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thematic roles may be thought of as a set of types when objects
>>>>> participate in processes.  There is a general notion of the role, but
>>>>> it
>>>>> gets instantiated in an object, such as a person who has a bishop role
>>>>> and
>>>>> thus participates in the bishop processes.****
>>>>> 
>>>>> Gary Berg-Cross, Ph.D.   ****
>>>>> 
>>>>> gbergcross@xxxxxxxxx      ****
>>>>> 
>>>>> http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?GaryBergCross****
>>>>> 
>>>>> NSF INTEROP Project  ****
>>>>> 
>>>>> http://www.nsf.gov/awardsearch/showAward.do?AwardNumber=0955816 ****
>>>>> 
>>>>> SOCoP Executive Secretary****
>>>>> 
>>>>> Knowledge Strategies     ****
>>>>> 
>>>>> Potomac, MD****
>>>>> 
>>>>> 240-426-0770****
>>>>> 
>>>>> ** **
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 1:05 PM, Chris Partridge <
>>>>> partridgec@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:****
>>>>> 
>>>>> You will find references to ‘bishop’ in the article.****
>>>>> 
>>>>> I understand that Nicola and Giancarlo (and others) would regard
>>>>> ‘bishop’
>>>>> as a role, qua object, etc.****
>>>>> 
>>>>> Historically this ‘role’ was introduced to ensure that legal title to
>>>>> property given to the church remained with the bishop (corporation
>>>>> sole)
>>>>> rather than inherited by his kin. It was then extended to
>>>>> monarchs.****
>>>>> 
>>>>> I find it odd that a qua object can own property, have
>>>>> responsibilities,
>>>>> declare war (Monarchs), etc. – which the person cannot do.****
>>>>> 
>>>>> I also cannot see how this would work if the corporation sole did not
>>>>> have
>>>>> some kind of identity.****
>>>>> 
>>>>> ****
>>>>> 
>>>>> *From:* ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:
>>>>> ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] *On Behalf Of *Jack Ring
>>>>> *Sent:* 31 January 2012 13:24****
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> *To:* Ontology Summit 2012 discussion
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [ontology-summit] System Components****
>>>>> 
>>>>> ****
>>>>> 
>>>>> I do not find 'role' mentioned in the given URL regarding 'sole'****
>>>>> 
>>>>> Elsewhere in widipedia is "role posits the following about social
>>>>> behaviour: #3. Roles are occupied by individuals, who are called
>>>>> actors<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actors>
>>>>> ."****
>>>>> 
>>>>> Overall It seems that role specifies a location in a coordinate
>>>>> system,
>>>>> not an operator such as actor.****
>>>>> 
>>>>> ****
>>>>> 
>>>>> Seems to me that the ****
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Jan 31, 2012, at 1:50 AM, Chris Partridge wrote:****
>>>>> 
>>>>> ** **
>>>>> 
>>>>> One sense, for another see e.g.
>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation_sole****
>>>>> 
>>>>> ‘role’ covers a wide variety of meanings****
>>>>> 
>>>>> ****
>>>>> 
>>>>> *From:* ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:
>>>>> ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] *On Behalf Of *Jack Ring
>>>>> *Sent:* 30 January 2012 23:33
>>>>> *To:* Ontology Summit 2012 discussion
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [ontology-summit] System Components****
>>>>> 
>>>>> ****
>>>>> 
>>>>> According to David Taylor, Object Technology for Managers, role is
>>>>> simply
>>>>> an authorization to act, not the operator that acts. Operators inherit
>>>>> roles then process operands accordingly. ****
>>>>> 
>>>>> ****
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Jan 30, 2012, at 3:50 PM, Nicola Guarino wrote:****
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> ****
>>>>> 
>>>>> Dear Matthew, ****
>>>>> 
>>>>> ****
>>>>> 
>>>>>         just a few clarifications concerning my lab's work. Note that
>>>>> I
>>>>> am just trying to catch up with the (main points of the) discussion,
>>>>> and
>>>>> I
>>>>> am probably missing many things. I look forward to seeing the
>>>>> discussion
>>>>> synthesised somewhere, in order to allow everybody to understand how
>>>>> we
>>>>> progress.****
>>>>> 
>>>>> ****
>>>>> 
>>>>> Matthew West writes (answering to Giancarlo Guizzardi):****
>>>>> 
>>>>> An alternative to this issue can be thought of by considering qua
>>>>> individuals
>>>>> (e.g.http://www.loa.istc.cnr.it/Papers/KR04MasoloC.pdf)****
>>>>> 
>>>>> ****
>>>>> 
>>>>> MW: This is very similar to the 4D, but is relatively opaque, and
>>>>> gives
>>>>> more individuals than if you adopt extensional identity in 4D. In this
>>>>> case
>>>>> playing multiple roles simultaneously does not give multiple states,
>>>>> but
>>>>> one state playing multiple roles. A bit more elegant I think.****
>>>>> 
>>>>> ****
>>>>> 
>>>>> or perspectiles
>>>>> 
>http://www.loa.istc.cnr.it/Papers/BottazziFerrarioPerspectilesEuroCogSciv.pdf
>>>>> ). ****
>>>>> 
>>>>> ****
>>>>> 
>>>>> MW: This seems to generalise the idea above a bit. One problem I have
>>>>> with
>>>>> both of these is that (if I understand it correctly) they treat social
>>>>> and
>>>>> other roles as purely classes. This gives me a problem if I want to
>>>>> shake
>>>>> the hand of the president, or start P101, because classes are
>>>>> abstract,
>>>>> and
>>>>> these are just things you can’t do to them. This is central to what I
>>>>> find
>>>>> unsatisfactory with these kinds of approaches. The situation is
>>>>> confused
>>>>> by
>>>>> there being several different meanings to role, from the participant
>>>>> role
>>>>> in an activity or state, to the component in a system, or social role
>>>>> with
>>>>> significant differences in character between them.****
>>>>> 
>>>>> ****
>>>>> 
>>>>> The second paper is still work in progress, while the first one is
>>>>> more
>>>>> established. In both cases, however, for sure the approach does not
>>>>> only
>>>>> admit roles as "pure classes", and new kinds of individuals are
>>>>> introduced.
>>>>> I defend a similar, although slightly different approach in the paper
>>>>> below, which explicitly considers the parts replacement problem (among
>>>>> other things) by introducing the notion of a "virtual individual"
>>>>> (NOTE
>>>>> -
>>>>> this is still a draft - comments welcome):****
>>>>> 
>>>>> ****
>>>>> 
>>>>> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7903842/Guarino-FunctionalPartsFunctionalRoles.pdf
>>>>> ****
>>>>> 
>>>>> ****
>>>>> 
>>>>> Best,****
>>>>> 
>>>>> ****
>>>>> 
>>>>> Nicola****
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
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>>>>> 
>>>>> 
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>>>>> 
>>>>> -- ****
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
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>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> Gary Berg-Cross, Ph.D.
>>>> gbergcross@xxxxxxxxx
>>>> http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?GaryBergCross
>>>> NSF INTEROP Project
>>>> http://www.nsf.gov/awardsearch/showAward.do?AwardNumber=0955816
>>>> SOCoP Executive Secretary
>>>> Knowledge Strategies
>>>> Potomac, MD
>>>> 240-426-0770
>>>> 
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>>> 
>>> 
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> 
> 
> 
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