| Perhaps all natural/ecological systems are man presumed and contrived, the only animal on earth with sufficient arrogance to make such declarations. Accordingly, we should be examining the ontology of the ladders of inferences that enable such 'systems' and the grand disagreements (such as man-caused global warming). Jack Ring On Jan 19, 2012, at 12:04 PM, Nicola Guarino wrote: On 19 Jan 2012, at 20:01, Gary Berg-Cross wrote: Nicola, I like the phrase "Large-scale socio-technical systems"
Do you include natural/ecological systems in this?
No. Natural/ecological systems do not necessarily have a social component, nor a technical component.
Cheers,
Nicola Gary Berg-Cross, Ph.D.
NSF INTEROP Project
SOCoP Executive Secretary Knowledge Strategies Potomac, MD 240-426-0770
On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 12:23 PM, Nicola Guarino <guarino@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Folks,
the term "engineered systems" coming from the initial discussions was indeed intended to convey an explicit focus on systems designed for a purpose, resulting from an an engineering process, as Matthew clarifies below. This track was born in parallel with track 1, which is its natural complement, focusing on the engineering process.
Of course, there are other kinds of big, complex systems which (as a whole) are not engineered, while they may contain or not some (relevant) parts which are engineered. An ecological system, at least at a first approximation, seems to be a purely natural system, while an urban system is clearly a system which contains engineered parts, although as a whole is not an engineered system.
In the big complex systems that we are facing nowadays, I think that the engineered dimension is too relevant to be not explicitly acknowledged, although we have also to look beyond the engineered system itself, to include in particular the social and the environmental context. That's why, instead of dropping "engineered" from the title, I suggest to modify the modify it a little bit:
"Large-scale socio-technical systems"
Under this notion we can include both the engineered (technical) systems properly, and the larger social context they are embeeded in. Purely natural systems remain out of focus, but I think this is good in order to avoid broadening too much our analysis.
Just a suggestion, I leave the track chairs to continue the discussion.
Talking to you in few minutes,
Nicola
On 19 Jan 2012, at 16:48, Matthew West wrote:
> Dear John,
>
>> I realize that a large number of messages have gone back and forth
>> about the word 'engineered'. But would anybody who reads the
>> announcement of the ontology summit need to know any of that?
>>
>>> Track 2 will focus on the ontology of large-scale engineered systems.
>>
>> Wouldn't it be simpler just to drop the word 'engineered'?
>
> Not really my choice of words. The titles were settled before I offered to
> be a champion. However, there is a distinction between systems in general
> and engineered systems. Engineered systems are those that are the result of
> some systems engineering process, whereas there are certainly systems that
> arise naturally, and were not engineered for a purpose - at least not by
> humans.
>
> If there was a strong interest expressed in systems that are wider than
> engineered systems, I would be happy to broaden the track to accommodate
> them. On the other hand, engineered systems are generally within my
> competence, whereas a broader view of systems would not be, and I'd rather
> not be drawing conclusions about systems in general when they really only
> applied to engineered systems.
>
> So I suggest we await an interest and expertise in non-engineered systems
> before making changes.
>
> Regards
>
> Matthew West
> Information Junction
> Tel: +44 1489 880185
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>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ontology-summit-org-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:ontology-summit-
>> org-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of John F. Sowa
>> Sent: 19 January 2012 13:42
>> To: ontology-summit-org@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Re: [ontology-summit-org] Track Content pages
>>
>> Dear Matthew,
>>
>> I realize that a large number of messages have gone back and forth
>> about the word 'engineered'. But would anybody who reads the
>> announcement of the ontology summit need to know any of that?
>>
>>> Track 2 will focus on the ontology of large-scale engineered systems.
>>
>> Wouldn't it be simpler just to drop the word 'engineered'?
>>
>> Is anything gained by that word, other than a puzzled look
>> on somebody's face who wonders what meaning, if any, that word
>> might contribute?
>>
>> John
>>
>>
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