David:
I share your view with the other works. Most of them have not “conceptualized” the models/FOL around UoM and are instead focused on the labels for various measures. I think for the “now”, event establishing a spreadsheet to map terms to each other would be a daunting task as you would need translators from many languages.
Duane
On 5/13/09 1:46 AM, "David Price" <david.price@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
One last try:-)
My original question was about a small subset of units as presented
during the summit F2F that we could focus on as a starter set. The
Subject of this thread is what we might do 'Now' - not in 2-10 years.
The responses suggest that other projects either don't have an immediate
need, already have their own units ontology or are not interested in
doing something common in the short term - I understand that now.
WRT some expert advice : For lack of any ontology related to NIST/OASIS
UnitsML or ISO-land it appears to me I should point the OASIS PLCS TC at
the NASA Sweet Ontology for Units. Anyone done analysis of that and
found any glaring errors?
Cheers,
David
On Tue, 2009-05-12 at 13:03 -0700, Duane Nickull wrote:
> This might be a great place to perform some ontology work which would
> demonstrate a huge benefit to society. The WCO has major issues
> mapping to and from various languages for UoM. For example, in
> Japan, you use a completely different counting system for anything
> that is flat. Even thinks in North America have vastly different
> units of measure. Mapping each of these ontology concepts to terms in
> various languages would be a huge issue. Think about these units of
> measure:
>
> A dozen eggs
> A “loaf” of bread, but also has weight
> Apples are not sold each in most places but by aggregate weight
> Liquids are sold by volume
> Long things are often sold in lengths
> Flat things are often sold in square feet or meters
> Firewood is sold by volume (chords), processed timber is sold by
> units, square feet, length and other measures. They all come from
> trees.
> ...
>
> This list goes on and on.
>
> I bet there would be funding for this type of work.
>
> D
>
>
> On 5/10/09 12:14 PM, "David Leal" <david.leal@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> wrote:
>
> Dear Henson,
>
> I agree with your comments, but the terminology is difficult.
> See:
>
> ISO 31-0:1992 - Quantities and units - Part 0 - General
> principles, Clause 2.1:
>
> "Physical quantities may be grouped together into categories
> of quantities
> which are mutually comparable. Lengths, diameters, distances,
> heights,
> wavelengths and so on would constitute such a category.
> Mutually comparable
> quantities are called "quantities of the same kind."
>
> "If a particular example of a quantity from such a category is
> chosen as a
> reference quantity called the <em>unit</em>, then any other
> quantity from
> this category can be expressed in terms of this unit, as a
> product of this
> unit and a number."
>
> >From this I deduce that:
> - The length 2.3 m is a "quantity".
> - Length is a "quantities of the same kind". The synonym
> "quantity category"
> is also used implicitly used in the text.
>
> I don't think that the ISO 31-0 terminology is ideal (I do not
> know whether
> ISO 80000 is the same). However, it is important to have an
> onotology which
> uses the same terminology of the standards from which it is
> derived. This is
> why it is necessary to have ISO TC12 on board.
>
> The second paragraph worries me - this is true for some
> "quantities of the
> same kind", but not others. Perhaps after discussion we can
> define the
> subclass of "quantities of the same kind" for which this is
> true.
>
> Best regards,
> David
>
> p.s. I have take the liberty of cc'ing this to the ontology
> summit to see if
> the discussion "rings any bells" with others.
>
> At 11:05 08/05/2009 -0500, you wrote:
> > Dear David,
> >This is the beginning of a good idea. My comments will be a
> bit random
> >as I have not been thinking about this lately. However in
> answer, I
> >believe that length is an example of what upper ontologies
> call a
> >Quantity. Length would be a specialization of quantity.
> Quantity is
> >what I belive is called a "reaified" class. Quantities can be
> >measured/computed in various ways using different kinds of
> units. I
> >believe that a meter is a unit of length measurement. We have
> had a lot
> >of discussion of this stuff which I have forgotten. What I
> say may be
> >wrong, but perhaps it will prompt you to take the next shot
> at it. I
> >believe that upperontologies use "haslength" as a role that
> takes a
> >value in the length quantity space, and haslengthinmeters is
> the
> >composition of haslenght and some "coordination function"
> defined on the
> >quantity which takes numeric or ordinal values. Let me know
> what you
> >think
> >Regards
> >- Henson
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: David Leal [mailto:david.leal@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> >Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 10:52 AM
> >To: Graves, Henson; vicki.bailey@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >Subject: RE: [ontology-summit] Progressing a Units Ontology -
> Now
> >
> >Dear Henson,
> >
> >Perhaps we would start with the statement: "The metre is a
> unit of
> >length."
> >
> >1) What sort of thing is "length"?
> >
> >2) What sort of things can have a unit?
> >
> >3) What does "unit of" add to the statement "The metre is a
> length"?
> >
> >4) In the statement "The metre is a length", what does "is a"
> mean?
> >
> >With an agreed answer to each of these, I think we would be
> near a first
> >deliverable.
> >
> >Best regards,
> >David
>
> ============================================================
> David Leal
> CAESAR Systems Limited
> registered office: 29 Somertrees Avenue, Lee, London SE12 0BS
> registered in England no. 2422371
> tel: +44 (0)20 8857 1095
> mob: +44 (0)77 0702 6926
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> web site: http://www.caesarsystems.co.uk
> ============================================================
>
>
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