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Re: [ontology-summit] Progressing a Units Ontology - Now

To: Ontology Summit 2009 <ontology-summit@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
From: David Price <david.price@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 09:46:50 +0100
Message-id: <1242204411.4484.31.camel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
One last try:-)    (01)

My original question was about a small subset of units as presented
during the summit F2F that we could focus on as a starter set. The
Subject of this thread is what we might do 'Now' - not in 2-10 years.
The responses suggest that other projects either don't have an immediate
need, already have their own units ontology or are not interested in
doing something common in the short term - I understand that now.    (02)

WRT some expert advice : For lack of any ontology related to NIST/OASIS
UnitsML or ISO-land it appears to me I should point the OASIS PLCS TC at
the NASA Sweet Ontology for Units. Anyone done analysis of that and
found any glaring errors?    (03)

Cheers,
David    (04)

On Tue, 2009-05-12 at 13:03 -0700, Duane Nickull wrote:
> This might be a great place to perform some ontology work which would
> demonstrate a huge benefit to society.  The WCO has major issues
> mapping to and  from various languages for UoM.  For example, in
> Japan, you use a completely different counting system for anything
> that is flat.  Even thinks in North America have vastly different
> units of measure.  Mapping each of these ontology concepts to terms in
> various languages would be a huge issue.  Think about these units of
> measure:
> 
> A dozen eggs
> A “loaf” of bread, but also has weight
> Apples are not sold each in most places but by aggregate weight
> Liquids are sold by volume
> Long things are often sold in lengths
> Flat things are often sold in square feet or meters
> Firewood is sold by volume (chords), processed timber is sold by
> units, square feet, length and other measures.  They all come from
> trees.
> ...
> 
> This list goes on and on.
> 
> I bet there would be funding for this type of work.
> 
> D
> 
> 
> On 5/10/09 12:14 PM, "David Leal" <david.leal@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> wrote:
> 
>         Dear Henson,
>         
>         I agree with your comments, but the terminology is difficult.
>         See:
>         
>         ISO 31-0:1992 - Quantities and units - Part 0 - General
>         principles, Clause 2.1:
>         
>         "Physical quantities may be grouped together into categories
>         of quantities
>         which are mutually comparable. Lengths, diameters, distances,
>         heights,
>         wavelengths and so on would constitute such a category.
>         Mutually comparable
>         quantities are called "quantities of the same kind."
>         
>         "If a particular example of a quantity from such a category is
>         chosen as a
>         reference quantity called the <em>unit</em>, then any other
>         quantity from
>         this category can be expressed in terms of this unit, as a
>         product of this
>         unit and a number."
>         
>         >From this I deduce that:
>         - The length 2.3 m is a "quantity".
>         - Length is a "quantities of the same kind". The synonym
>         "quantity category"
>         is also used implicitly used in the text.
>         
>         I don't think that the ISO 31-0 terminology is ideal (I do not
>         know whether
>         ISO 80000 is the same). However, it is important to have an
>         onotology which
>         uses the same terminology of the standards from which it is
>         derived. This is
>         why it is necessary to have ISO TC12 on board.
>         
>         The second paragraph worries me - this is true for some
>         "quantities of the
>         same kind", but not others. Perhaps after discussion we can
>         define the
>         subclass of "quantities of the same kind" for which this is
>         true.
>         
>         Best regards,
>         David 
>         
>         p.s. I have take the liberty of cc'ing this to the ontology
>         summit to see if
>         the discussion "rings any bells" with others.
>         
>         At 11:05 08/05/2009 -0500, you wrote:
>         > Dear David,
>         >This is the beginning of a good idea.  My comments will be a
>         bit random
>         >as I have not been thinking about this lately.  However in
>         answer, I
>         >believe that length is an example of what upper ontologies
>         call a
>         >Quantity.  Length would be a specialization of quantity.
>          Quantity is
>         >what I belive is called a "reaified" class. Quantities can be
>         >measured/computed in various ways using different kinds of
>         units.  I
>         >believe that a meter is a unit of length measurement. We have
>         had a lot
>         >of discussion of this stuff which I have forgotten.  What I
>         say may be
>         >wrong, but perhaps it will prompt you to take the next shot
>         at it.  I
>         >believe that upperontologies use "haslength" as a role that
>         takes a
>         >value in the length quantity space, and haslengthinmeters is
>         the
>         >composition of haslenght and some "coordination function"
>         defined on the
>         >quantity which takes numeric or ordinal values.  Let me know
>         what you
>         >think
>         >Regards
>         >- Henson
>         >
>         >-----Original Message-----
>         >From: David Leal [mailto:david.leal@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>         >Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 10:52 AM
>         >To: Graves, Henson; vicki.bailey@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>         >Subject: RE: [ontology-summit] Progressing a Units Ontology -
>         Now
>         >
>         >Dear Henson,
>         >
>         >Perhaps we would start with the statement: "The metre is a
>         unit of
>         >length."
>         >
>         >1) What sort of thing is "length"?
>         >
>         >2) What sort of things can have a unit?
>         >
>         >3) What does "unit of" add to the statement "The metre is a
>         length"?
>         >
>         >4) In the statement "The metre is a length", what does "is a"
>         mean?
>         >
>         >With an agreed answer to each of these, I think we would be
>         near a first
>         >deliverable.
>         >
>         >Best regards,
>         >David
>         
>         ============================================================
>         David Leal
>         CAESAR Systems Limited
>         registered office: 29 Somertrees Avenue, Lee, London SE12 0BS
>         registered in England no. 2422371
>         tel:      +44 (0)20 8857 1095
>         mob:      +44 (0)77 0702 6926
>         e-mail:   david.leal@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>         web site: http://www.caesarsystems.co.uk
>         ============================================================
>         
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